Coolant...

[youngrider]

Stovetop experiments do not mimic the 'closed cooling system of a car (open only when radiator cap capacity is exceeded'.

That is why the car cooling sytem is not as good w/o a radiator cap.

Running a pure water with a cap rating of 0.9 (0.9 x 1 Bar or 14.7 PSI} will increase its boiling point to 115 degrees C. The boiling point of water increases 3 degree F per PSI, a 25% coolant mix will further improve this with other benefits.

Adding a surfactant like 'Redline's water wetter' will improve further your cooling sytem.

You can read this link to give you another view (although there are a lot of this kind in the web really).

http://www.turbomagazine.com/feature...t_results.html

I would say that the readers should read more on this subject before giving a final conclusion.

[userfriendly]

Adding a surfactant like 'Redline's water wetter' will improve further your cooling sytem.

How can you test the effectivity of red line water wetter? I mean, your t-stat should keep the temp pretty constant, right?

I bought a bottle of this stuff during the trans show. I want to know how to test if it really does what it claims to do.

[youngrider]

CORRECTION PLS:

The boiling point of pure water increases to about 250F or 120C using a 0.9 radiator cap. I posted erronneously by using 10 PSI radiator cap pressure. A 0.9 radiator cap will exert 13 PSI pressure on the cooling system.

Most vehicles today operate at a rather higher normal operating temperature range from about 195F(90C) to 220F(100C), older vehicles have lower normal operating temperature. A higher than the normal range is an invitation for a toasted engine because its metal temp is much higher than the coolant temp.

A 50/50 mix will have a boilover at 265(129C) but most conventional engines are not designed to run with a coolant temp at this level, anything goes beyond 220F(100C) is bettter dissipated immediately by an efficient cooling system.

Here is a link to official Redline water wetter primer. It contain some basic info about cooling system as well.

http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf

I am not an advocate either of 'Only Pure Water'. As science progresses a better engine and a better 'coolant' will be discovered.

What I have presented are just options for economizing the cooling system maintenance in response to the original post, no hard and fast rules intended.

[youngrider]

BTW, sir userfriendly magkano po ba Redline Water Wetter for a 6 liter cooling system.

How can you test the effectivity of red line water wetter? I mean, your t-stat should keep the temp pretty constant, right?

Your operating temp should remain within normal operating range about the same level or lower comparing back to the time when your car is operating most efficiently (which is usually around when the car is still in a brand new condition).

Yung sa car ko just a little above the beginning of the green mark with aircon on, combined city and highway driving at 50:50 coolant mix. W/O aircon the pointer will rise just a little above the midpoint of the indicator before the high speed fan turns on.

[shampooking]

nice nice... I am also an advocate of deionized distilled water... the kind you have in dextrose bottles but of course it is too expensive... made some research with water wetter and they say it's smelly.

[userfriendly]

BTW, sir userfriendly magkano po ba Redline Water Wetter for a 6 liter cooling system.

Bought mine sa trans show. 470 pesos a bottle, show price.

[mbeige]

[SIZE=-1]Summary of Results. Water does not cool best. But water with a surfactant is an excellent coolant. Pure ethylene glycol gives the best boilover protection, but should never be used in non aqueous solutions because it's inflammable. Given that most drivers are concerned with freeze protection as well as cooling, a 50/50 mix, plus a surfactant is the best choice.[/SIZE]


I don't know about you guys but reading these graphs from the link Niky posted confirms my previous knowledge that 50/50 mixture plus Redline Water Wetter works best for all around use. I wanted to try a pure water + Redline Water Wetter but I sometimes drive in places that get really cold here so I opted to use the 50% mixture combined with the surfactant.

My car's temperature has always been consistent. Now, with newer cars sporting less gauges and more indicators alone, it's even harder to tell if the temperatures rose by just a bit because all you get is a "too hot" light once it's getting hotter than usual. By how much, we don't know.

[youngrider]

double post.

[youngrider]

I don't know about you guys but reading these graphs...

IMO, it is really exxpected to have the graphs this way, pure water has:


1. higher heat capacity - volume per volume H2o hold a lot more heat. A smaller capacity cooling sytem with pure water can absorb more heat faster..

2. And_ it has also higher thermal conductivity - Pure water gives up more heat with lesser temperature gradient. In a relatively cooler radiator environment pure water will release more heat faster.

3. Plus_ Pure water has lower viscosity - it will move faster in the cooling system.


....SO PURE WATER HAS A HIGHER HEAT TRANSFER ABILITY....


But is pure water the best coolant for engines, lets take the major CONS:


1. Pure water has a lower freezing point(0C or 32F) - Freezing is not a problem in the Philippines.

2. Pure water has a lower boiling point(100C or 212F). - Most cars today has a normal operating range between 195F to 212F with the Thermovalve fully opening at around 195F. Using a radiator cap with at least 0.9 rating (that is 0.9 x 1 bar or about 14.7 PSI) will raise the boiling point of pure water to 250F or 120C.

There is 3F increase in boiling pt. per one PSI pressure applied. Mixing it with 'coolants also raises its BP. But as said, you really don't want your coolant temperature go beyond 212F coz' the engine metal temperature is much higher than the coolant temperature. The risk for a TOASTED ENGINE is looming.

3. Pure water has a higher surface tension - this translates to a lesser percent coverage per surface area of the cooling system. Redline's water wetter and other SURFACTANTS claim to solve this.

4. With Pure water corrosion is high. Ethylene glycol in pure form is also highly corrosive.

Redline has enlightening technical info and figures, it is good to read their primer on their water wetter product.

http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf

Anti-freeze, anti-boil, and anti-corossion properties need not be sourced solely from Glycol products, they can be bought separatety according to your needs and fancies.

The older vehicles operate in a lower operating range, but with the attempt to produce more power per engine displacement, very high fuel economy, and very strict emmision control the results are the high heat producing engines in our time. Diesel engine manufacturers in the US, as diesel are gaining popularity, are predicting a 30% hotter diesel engines in order to comply with the government's regulations on pollution control.

Solution, 50/50 glycol coolant mix?....................

[mbeige]

I'm not arguing with you, my reply was an insight to my driving conditions here in the US where it gets cold as well. Although it's not anywhere near freezing, I'd like to have the peace of mind that my car can sustain driving in those conditions if needed be. This is the same when I go to the desert, I'd like to know it'll handle the extreme heat and cold. Have you ever been to the desert at night? It gets really cold, but come morning the temperatures soar. Those extremes place an increased demand on the system. Back there maybe not so much as the temps remain consistent around the mid-30's, but here it's entirely different.

In that stovetop experiment, I'm sure with a properly closed system the radiator cap would still increase the boiling point much further. There was a reason that 50/50 anti-freeze and water is the recommended cooling fluid for our system, and that is to get the best of both properties.

To each his own.

IMO, it is really exxpected to have the graphs this way, pure water has:


1. higher heat capacity - volume per volume H2o hold a lot more heat. A smaller capacity cooling sytem with pure water can absorb more heat faster..

2. And_ it has also higher thermal conductivity - Pure water gives up more heat with lesser temperature gradient. In a relatively cooler radiator environment pure water will release more heat faster.

3. Plus_ Pure water has lower viscosity - it will move faster in the cooling system.


....SO PURE WATER HAS A HIGHER HEAT TRANSFER ABILITY....


But is pure water the best coolant for engines, lets take the major CONS:


1. Pure water has a lower freezing point(0C or 32F) - Freezing is not a problem in the Philippines.

2. Pure water has a lower boiling point(100C or 212F). - Most cars today has a normal operating range between 195F to 212F with the Thermovalve fully opening at around 195F. Using a radiator cap with at least 0.9 rating (that is 0.9 x 1 bar or about 14.7 PSI) will raise the boiling point of pure water to 250F or 120C.

There is 3F increase in boiling pt. per one PSI pressure applied. Mixing it with 'coolants also raises its BP. But as said, you really don't want your coolant temperature go beyond 212F coz' the engine metal temperature is much higher than the coolant temperature. The risk for a TOASTED ENGINE is looming.

3. Pure water has a higher surface tension - this translates to a lesser percent coverage per surface area of the cooling system. Redline's water wetter and other SURFACTANTS claim to solve this.

4. With Pure water corrosion is high. Ethylene glycol in pure form is also highly corrosive.

Redline has enlightening technical info and figures, it is good to read their primer on their water wetter product.

http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf

Anti-freeze, anti-boil, and anti-corossion properties need not be sourced solely from Glycol products, they can be bought separatety according to your needs and fancies.

The older vehicles operate in a lower operating range, but with the attempt to produce more power per engine displacement, very high fuel economy, and very strict emmision control the results are the high heat producing engines in our time. Diesel engine manufacturers in the US, as diesel are gaining popularity, are predicting a 30% hotter diesel engines in order to comply with the government's regulations on pollution control.

Solution, 50/50 glycol coolant mix?....................

[niky]

Actually... redline water wetter has been tested in competition conditions by racers, and they swear by it. On the racetrack, despite having a working high-pressure radiator cap and a looser thermostat, excessive heat produced by long periods of high-revving can overload an engine's cooling capacity. Water Wetter keeps the water in the coolant from boiling over once this point has been reached (and, believe you me, drive hard enough, like I do, and you can definitely reach it).

Mike Kojima swears by it... and I trust the guy... like, man... he's the dude...

-----

As for new engines running really hot... it's crazy... issues with tuning the Focus TDCi for racing includes the fact that it runs maybe ten to twenty degrees hotter (in terms of coolant temps) than anything else. That's why it's got a waterless system. If you tried to use water in the TDCi's coolant tank... kablooey.

[youngrider]

I agree. To each his own.

And be familiar with your cars. If in doubt, follow the carmakers recommendation. Coolant is only a part of the whole cooling system.

The cooling efficiency is calculated by the carmakers based on the 'totality of the cooling system design' of a particular car which should suffice even in harsher temperature conditions. I used to have 50:50 glycol mix exclusively and my cars run very nicely, though the cost is repulsive sometimes.

However, one cannot be really prevented to cool their cars according to their wishes, limitations, needs, or fancies. For example many PUJs here, use 'pure tap water', employ a larger capacity radiators, they remove the thermovalve even the radiator cap, but they add water frequently and it works according to their wishes; cost vs benefit in given point in time and situation.

With slower flow of cash, we may wonder if we can at least reduce the amount of the glycol coolant in the mix and IMO it can be done with precautions, without hurting our engines based on the technical facts and experiences.

You can even replace 'glycol based coolant' entirely with other additives and it will be just fine.

And please remember thet cooling sytem of our cars are prone to deteriorate as they old, to which standard fixes do not apply, practical, nor possible with the existing condition. In that case, do as you think right and be satisfied with it.

But please, don't put a joke in your brand new million buck car.

[niky]

Well... for PUJs, it's okay... because they have relatively old and robust engines... but the "thermostat-out" style certainly helps contribute to air pollution in the metro.

As for putting jokes in a brand new car... well, according to mbt, the new Mercedes C-Class requires Johnnie Walker Blue Label for coolant. Should work wonders.

[youngrider]

"Johnny Walker Blue Label for C-class MB"

Hanep talaga MB, it is second to none, always ahead of the class.

Caution lang po sa mga gustong gumamit ng SURFACTANTS like 'Redline Waterwetter', madali po itomg mag-leak kahit sa mga micro crack and holes. You might be surprised that your radiator is leaking suddenly.

Normal po yan dahil sa pagbaba ng surface tension ng coolant. Ganito din po ang nagyayari sa mga nag-shift to 'glycol mix' from water as is. Kala nila binutas na ng coolant yung radiator nila, ang totoo inilantad lang nito ang truth baga.

If this happens to you, distilled water (P20/L)with 'anti-corrosion/pump lube additive'(P100) plus(optional) 'stop leak products'(P60) na lang po siguro gamitin nyo(mga around 250 petot for a four-liter cooling system). Renew the mix after six mos initially, then pwede na siguro yearly.

Mas safe daw yung 'powder type stop leaks'. The liquid forms can have a higher chance of clogging your cooling system. Bar's anti-leak products if available.

There are also complaints of 'jelling' when 'Redline Waterwetter' is added to 50:50 Glycol mix. So, siguro add sa distilled water na lang kung dto gamit sa Pinas or use it with 75:25 to 70:30 water/glycol mix.

[speedyfix]

those powder type stop leaks are crap! look what it does to the watter passages after you put it. parang lahat ng passages lumiliit since kumakapit sya to the metal.

[youngrider]

[QUOTE]those powder type stop leaks are crap!....[/QUOTE]

So, be careful mga Tol, 'Stop Leak Products are not for the Faint-hearted, Panicky Individuals'

[GBStJames]

I have recently seen several B20 engine blocks na naka junk sa isang shop dito sa Bagiuo. Corroded yung ibabaw na part which caused the these engines to overheat. I have been told that this is due to the use of coolant instead of pure distilled water. What do you think about this guys?

[s10pao]

I have recently seen several B20 engine blocks na naka junk sa isang shop dito sa Bagiuo. Corroded yung ibabaw na part which caused the these engines to overheat. I have been told that this is due to the use of coolant instead of pure distilled water. What do you think about this guys?

sir baka hinde well maintained ung coolant. dapat every 2 years ung flushing ng coolants.