Traffic In Manila - Who Contributes The Most?

[jut703]

driver discipline does figure significantly in maintaining moving traffic.

btw,
yung mga edsa buses na bumubuntis before the underpass, nagtatambakan at ayaw umalis sa bustop?
that, to means, one thing: there are too many buses. we can do with less.

Nakasakay ka na sa bus sa Cubao papunta Monumento or Fairview pag gabi doc? Agawan yan. Puno lahat. Kaya may spillover ng pasahero sa daan kasi nakikipagunahan dun sa next bus.

Same case sa Ayala, sa Crossing, sa Philcoa. Tayuan ang bus. Lumuluwag lang kapag nasa Litex na. Pag nagbawas ka ng bus sa mga rota na yan sa oras na yan, paano uuwi yung mga empleyado na walang sariling kotse?

Ang bus, hindi puno kapag pabalik (i.e. galing Fairview or Monumento pabalik ng Baclaran or Alabang). Pero paano naman sila babalik sa terminal sa Baclaran/MOA/Alabang kung hindi sila babyahe pabalik sa EDSA?

The systematic way to do it is to have centralized dispatching, scrapping the boundary system, and strict implementation of bus stops. But because city bus operators are able to influence regulations, they are able to keep the antiquated privatized dog-eat-dog system that we have today because it maximizes profits for them at the detriment of the entire transpo network.

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[dr. d]

Nakasakay ka na sa bus sa Cubao papunta Monumento or Fairview pag gabi doc? Agawan yan. Puno lahat. Kaya may spillover ng pasahero sa daan kasi nakikipagunahan dun sa next bus.

Same case sa Ayala, sa Crossing, sa Philcoa. Tayuan ang bus. Lumuluwag lang kapag nasa Litex na. Pag nagbawas ka ng bus sa mga rota na yan sa oras na yan, paano uuwi yung mga empleyado na walang sariling kotse?

Ang bus, hindi puno kapag pabalik (i.e. galing Fairview or Monumento pabalik ng Baclaran or Alabang). Pero paano naman sila babalik sa terminal sa Baclaran/MOA/Alabang kung hindi sila babyahe pabalik sa EDSA?

The systematic way to do it is to have centralized dispatching, scrapping the boundary system, and strict implementation of bus stops. But because city bus operators are able to influence regulations, they are able to keep the antiquated privatized dog-eat-dog system that we have today because it maximizes profits for them at the detriment of the entire transpo network.

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unless you dorm-ed or you were hatid-ed and sundo-ed,
you probably made lambitin sa estribo like us.

edsa.
during rush hours, yes, puno ang bus.
but outside of those, half-full would probably be a good estimate. i see it with my own eyes.
back in the day, we observed that during lulls in passengership, maraming red buses ang naka-parada sa terminal nila (back then, along katipunan). during rush hour, walang nakaparada. u-turn lang, at balik sa kayod. "self-dispatchment at work."

puno ang bus? we should look at the bus before it enters the significant bustop. the bustop that guarantees lots of pasajeros. your post above already mentions some of them. more often than not, puno na siya when it leaves said bustop, because it doesn't leave the bustop until it gets full. where are those baton-wielding TEs, who would whop those overstaying buses into leaving already?
and yes. hindi uso ang falling line sa bustop sa atin. we like to take to the streets. literalmente, every man for himself.

and whose idea was it, that buses that do not intend to use the bustop, may not take the underpass?
why force them to pass by the bustop even as they are not gonna use it? they only contribute to the traffic up there.

perhaps we remember the time, when the newly-seated edsa czar (mmda) threatened to impound colorum buses along edsa.
as i remember, biglang gumanda traffic sa edsa noong mga panahong yon.. some say it was because of the threat of impoundment that the buses didn't choose to mamasada that day, others say it was because the drivers were behaving, threatened by the traffic enforcers who were openly brandishing their TCTs (pan-tiket).

i'd leave my car at home, if mrt and bodily health were a viable option.
so,
how many of you healthy bodies would leave your cars at home and take public transpo?

giving the commuting masses an alternative is an obvious solution. i can even point out one such: MRT, LRT.
what's so difficult about importing engineering-compatible bagons and putting them to work immediately?
what's so difficult in ensuring a real honest-to-goodness maintenance and improvement budget for these very laudable mass-transport systems?

tama rin naman si pres duterte. "let's remove the 'lowest bidder' policy. if you get the lowest bidder, you get the lowest quality."

"rant."
heh heh.

[_Cathy_]

unless you dorm-ed or you were hatid-ed and sundo-ed,
you probably made lambitin sa estribo like us.

"rant."
heh heh.

doc, 90s pa ata binawal yung sabit sa jeep sa Metro Manila Mahigpit sila dyan

[jut703]

unless you dorm-ed or you were hatid-ed and sundo-ed,
you probably made lambitin sa estribo like us.

edsa.
during rush hours, yes, puno ang bus.
but outside of those, half-full would probably be a good estimate. i see it with my own eyes.
back in the day, we observed that during lulls in passengership, maraming red buses ang naka-parada sa terminal nila (back then, along katipunan). during rush hour, walang nakaparada. u-turn lang, at balik sa kayod. "self-dispatchment at work."

puno ang bus? we should look at the bus before it enters the significant bustop. the bustop that guarantees lots of pasajeros. your post above already mentions some of them. more often than not, puno na siya when it leaves said bustop, because it doesn't leave the bustop until it gets full. where are those baton-wielding TEs, who would whop those overstaying buses into leaving already?
and yes. hindi uso ang falling line sa bustop sa atin. we like to take to the streets. literalmente, every man for himself.

and whose idea was it, that buses that do not intend to use the bustop, may not take the underpass?
why force them to pass by the bustop even as they are not gonna use it? they only contribute to the traffic up there.

perhaps we remember the time, when the newly-seated edsa czar (mmda) threatened to impound colorum buses along edsa.
as i remember, biglang gumanda traffic sa edsa noong mga panahong yon.. some say it was because of the threat of impoundment that the buses didn't choose to mamasada that day, others say it was because the drivers were behaving, threatened by the traffic enforcers who were openly brandishing their TCTs (pan-tiket).

i'd leave my car at home, if mrt and bodily health were a viable option.
so,
how many of you healthy bodies would leave your cars at home and take public transpo?

giving the commuting masses an alternative is an obvious solution. i can even point out one such: MRT, LRT.
what's so difficult about importing engineering-compatible bagons and putting them to work immediately?
what's so difficult in ensuring a real honest-to-goodness maintenance and improvement budget for these very laudable mass-transport systems?

tama rin naman si pres duterte. "let's remove the 'lowest bidder' policy. if you get the lowest bidder, you get the lowest quality."

"rant."
heh heh.

1. I noticed that the concept of "rush hour" has expanded now compared to even just a decade ago. Dati, ang rush hour is usually 7am-9am and 5pm-8pm.

Ngayon as early as 6am, punuan na. All the way until around lunchtime. Then mga 4pm siksikan na ulit all the way to about 10pm.

So you actually have more rush hours than non-rush hours.

2. The systemic inefficiencies you've mentioned with how buses queue and how they are dispatched are indeed opportunities that, when solved, will increase passenger productivity even without hardware investments. It will also require buses to be controlled centrally, with drivers earning fixed wages instead of boundary. Ayaw na ayaw ng bus operators yan, and as bigtime businessmen, they have very strong lobbying power in LTFRB and MMDA.

3. More MRT trains have long been available, pinulitika lang kasi kunwari hindi compatible kasi overweight daw. 3rd party testing shows otherwise, yet here we are, 4 years after the arrival of the Dalian trains, still unused commercially in the MRT lines.

4. People spilling over to the street is actually a symptom of the lack of sightlines. Kung nakapila ka, hindi mo makikita ang route ng parating na bus. Kaya kailangan sumilip pagilid - hence the typical formation you see in bus stops.





People will voluntarily take public transpo if it becomes signficantly more convenient than it is now. But it isn't, so people still take their cars. But again, blame the system and not the PUV drivers who are mere victims of this system as well.

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[jut703]

Marami pa rin factors diba? Yun dating nakita ko na post dito na hinarangang ng bus yun Edsa dahil nakipag unahan pick up passengers nag cost ng traffic. So factor din yun ginagawa ng bus kahit mas konti pero mas malaki sila physically which ganyan naman regularly nangyayari.

For me kahit marami private cars pero kung walang istorbo na public vehicles walanf disiplina kung saan saan hinto mas makakarating sila mabilis sa puntahan then maka park na bawas na sa daan unlike public andyan lang yan buong araw meron passenger or wala.

Ang problem naman sa EDSA yun hinde tuloy tuloy na takbo dahil nababara ng usually buses.

Basta bawasan nila buses sa EDSA para alisin nila yun bottle neck para tuloy tuloy takbo para makarating agad sa puntahan at mabawasan isanf sasakyan sa kalsada.

My point is depende kung saan kalsada parang nga sabi si sweet wala ng trwafgci sa Taft na lugar ng jeeps saka buses.
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Ok sana kung may data kang mapakita to support your argument. I have presented you multiple data sources that show that private cars comprise majority of the traffic in EDSA while being the most inefficient form of transpo in terms of passengers per square meter.

Nobody is denying that improving traffic flow by removing loading/unloading chokepoints. But you're making a false equivalence by saying that solving the bus problem will have as big an impact as reducing the number of private cars on the road.

Simple lang naman tanong - if we fix bus scheduling, loading/unloading, terminal locations, how many % of EDSA congestion is reduced?

In comparison, if you reduce the number of private cars in EDSA, how many % of congestion is reduced?

Let's assume generously that each bus contributes 5x the congestion of a private car (because undisciplined, larger size, etc etc). So if you reduce buses by half because you removed inefficient routes and all terminals on EDSAn then you impact 6,500 buses, equivalent to freeing up space for 32,000 cars.

In comparison, reduce cars by even just a third, then you free up space for 80,000 cars. That's already a much bigger impact.

Furthermore, by reducing buses by 6,500 on EDSA, at an assumed 20 people per bus (vs full capacity of 60 per bus). you reduce mobility for 130,000 people. In comparison, removing 80,000 cars only reduces mobility for 96,000 people.

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[shadow]

Ok sana kung may data kang mapakita to support your argument. I have presented you multiple data sources that show that private cars comprise majority of the traffic in EDSA while being the most inefficient form of transpo in terms of passengers per square meter.

Nobody is denying that improving traffic flow by removing loading/unloading chokepoints. But you're making a false equivalence by saying that solving the bus problem will have as big an impact as reducing the number of private cars on the road.

Simple lang naman tanong - if we fix bus scheduling, loading/unloading, terminal locations, how many % of EDSA congestion is reduced?

In comparison, if you reduce the number of private cars in EDSA, how many % of congestion is reduced?

Let's assume generously that each bus contributes 5x the congestion of a private car (because undisciplined, larger size, etc etc). So if you reduce buses by half because you removed inefficient routes and all terminals on EDSAn then you impact 6,500 buses, equivalent to freeing up space for 32,000 cars.

In comparison, reduce cars by even just a third, then you free up space for 80,000 cars. That's already a much bigger impact.

Furthermore, by reducing buses by 6,500 on EDSA, at an assumed 20 people per bus (vs full capacity of 60 per bus). you reduce mobility for 130,000 people. In comparison, removing 80,000 cars only reduces mobility for 96,000 people.

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Kaya nga sabi ko depende sa kalsada. Paano yun sinabi ni sweet na nawala traffic sa Taft ngayon dahil wala na rin jeeps and buses dumadaan doon. I'm assuming ganun din doon mas marami private vehicles compare sa public.

So yun hinto hinto kung saan saan nag bara ng kalsada nawala kaya diretso lang takbo walang traffic. Wala naman kasing reason para tumigil sa kalsada mga private vehicles unlike public.





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[Lin Dan]

For me it all boils down to volume and density. Sobrang dami na talagang tao (with cars and those who ride PUV) sa NCR kaya the heavy traffic congestion is expected and thus will remain.


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[Little Missy]

For me volume talaga big factor diyan. May bus lane naman sa edsa dun sila magbuhol buhol pero bakit yung lane ng private cars traffic pa din, eh kasi puno.

Since third world tayo parang ang elitista nung babawasan yung bus para dire-diretso ang private cars. Pag rush hour hindi lang sasakyan ang nagpapaclog sa daan, nagkalat din ang commuters sa kalsada agawan ng masasakyan.

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[jut703]

Kaya nga sabi ko depende sa kalsada. Paano yun sinabi ni sweet na nawala traffic sa Taft ngayon dahil wala na rin jeeps and buses dumadaan doon. I'm assuming ganun din doon mas marami private vehicles compare sa public.

So yun hinto hinto kung saan saan nag bara ng kalsada nawala kaya diretso lang takbo walang traffic. Wala naman kasing reason para tumigil sa kalsada mga private vehicles unlike public.





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Anecdotal, di na naman data-based. What are the pre-post numbers?

I also have anecdotal first-hand experience that C5 (which has no bus routes and jeeps) remains clogged even today. Also experienced the same in Commonwealth (like the example I showed above). Same experience on Marcos Highway. Traffic pa rin dahil maraming kotse. Mas maluwag slightly than if you had public transpo, but the point stands - private cars cause the most traffic.

For me volume talaga big factor diyan. May bus lane naman sa edsa dun sila magbuhol buhol pero bakit yung lane ng private cars traffic pa din, eh kasi puno.

Since third world tayo parang ang elitista nung babawasan yung bus para dire-diretso ang private cars. Pag rush hour hindi lang sasakyan ang nagpapaclog sa daan, nagkalat din ang commuters sa kalsada agawan ng masasakyan.

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I agree - simple lang naman eh. Put yourself in their shoes. Lahat ng nagcocomment dito mga private car owners - kelan kayo last sumakay ng bus at jeep para umuwi from Makati/BGC to Novaliches or whatever far-flung suburban area?

I have lived longer as a commuter than as a private car owner and trust me, during rush hour the trains, buses, jeeps and tricycles are never enough. Pagod ka na sa trabaho, pagod ka pa sa pila, tayuan pa yung bus so di ka makakaidlip (baka madukutan ka pa). Araw araw yan, yung byahe ng private car na 1.5 hrs-2 hrs lang, sayo 3-4 hrs.

Kaya ang kailangan is greater public transpo capacity - more trains, more buses (with efficient dispatching and routes).

Once you're able to provide for this, tax car ownership exorbitantly. Private cars are still more convenient so people should pay for that convenience (that inconveniences the riding public due to road congestion). This is the direction that all developed cities have taken - less private cars, more public transpo and biking.

Also interesting what you mentioned about elitism, there's really a sociological aspect and it emanates in this thread:
The sociology of EDSA traffic | BusinessWorld

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[dr. d]

I also have anecdotal first-hand experience that C5 (which has no bus routes and jeeps) remains clogged even today. Also experienced the same in Commonwealth (like the example I showed above). Same experience on Marcos Highway. Traffic pa rin dahil maraming kotse. Mas maluwag slightly than if you had public transpo, but the point stands - private cars cause the most traffic.

bawal kasi ang container van sa edsa.
sa C5 lahat sila dumadaan.
it takes but a couple of slow-moving containers, to cause significant traffic behind them so far back, the poor motoristas do not see the cause of traffic anymore.

[shadow]

Baka naman puro container trucks naman andyan wala nga mga jeep puro trucks naman?

Diba sa C5 pag andyan mga trucks sobranf traffic pero pag truck ban hinde naman.


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[bxr monkey]

Baka naman puro container trucks naman andyan wala nga mga jeep puro trucks naman?

Diba sa C5 pag andyan mga trucks sobranf traffic pero pag truck ban hinde naman.

Kailangan natin trucks. Iyan nagdadala ng mga goods at supplies natin.

Kawawa mga truck driver, gabi at madaling araw ang biyahe. Night shift, ang sakit sa mata hindi pa tama ang tulog.

[bxr monkey]

Kapag coding, suwerte ako may convenient P2P bus route at 4pm ang uwian kaya wala pa pila.

Na tsempo dati walang P2P, aba ang siksikan sobra sa ordinary bus, tayuan na sardinas.

Kung kasing convenient ng P2P na maraming ruta ayos. Kaso hindi lahat naman kaya ang pamasahe niyan.

Maganda naging exclusive bike lanes ang outer lanes. Safe, mas democratic, pabor sa hangin na mamana ng anak natin.

[jut703]

Baka naman puro container trucks naman andyan wala nga mga jeep puro trucks naman?

Diba sa C5 pag andyan mga trucks sobranf traffic pero pag truck ban hinde naman.


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Even on the roads with the highest truck congestion, they only comprise <10% of road volume (i.e. sa C5, 1 lane lang ang truck pero 4 lanes ang kotse)



Anyway paikot ikot na, dami ko nang pinresent na data point. Ikaw puro anecdotal lang. Basta hindi private may kasalanan ng congestion sa metro manila. Kahit na 2.5M sila vs a few hundred thousand of all other vehicle types. Ok got it! [emoji106]

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[shadow]

Even on the roads with the highest truck congestion, they only comprise <10% of road volume (i.e. sa C5, 1 lane lang ang truck pero 4 lanes ang kotse)



Anyway paikot ikot na, dami ko nang pinresent na data point. Ikaw puro anecdotal lang. Basta hindi private may kasalanan ng congestion sa metro manila. Kahit na 2.5M sila vs a few hundred thousand of all other vehicle types. Ok got it! [emoji106]

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Hinde lang private or public ang cause ng traffic yun infrastructure, undisciplined drivers...sa theory or numbers glaring talaga yun numbers ng private vs public pero mga nangyayari sa kalsada Hindd naman na pickup ng numbers eh.

Ilan beses nag stop mga buses or jeeps kung saan saan at mag cause ng traffic? Nakukuha ba ng data yan?

For example sa EDSA diba meron lang part na Traffic talaga after malagpasan mo wala na? Ano reason dahil nagbuntis na dahil naka harang na mga buses.

Kahit 10 pa private cars pero diretso lang takbo nila tapos makakarating agad sa destination na walang magbistorbo na public vehicles walanf traffic eh kung melrn isang bus na hinto magsanay tapos harsnagsng yun daanan ng 10 private cars mag traffic na yan damay damay na hanggang tumukod.

Yun sa C5 naman wala nga stop light pero nakita mo naman pag wala ng truck ban kahit middle lang sila traffic pa rin sa laki nila. Pero before and after ng truck ban wala Traffic.

Sa Taft to divisoria kaya traffic ba ngayon walang mga jeeps? Just sa cityhall traffic kaya ngayon?

So depende sa kalsada guide lang yan numbers pero dapat makita din yun actual ano ba talaga dahilan


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[dr. d]

Hinde lang private or public ang cause ng traffic yun infrastructure, undisciplined drivers...sa theory or numbers glaring talaga yun numbers ng private vs public pero mga nangyayari sa kalsada Hindd naman na pickup ng numbers eh.


Sa Taft to divisoria kaya traffic ba ngayon walang mga jeeps? Just sa cityhall traffic kaya ngayon?

So depende sa kalsada guide lang yan numbers pero dapat makita din yun actual ano ba talaga dahilan


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mas maganda sana traffic sa taft avenue, from pedro gil to the river,
but for these pesky e-trikes...
they probably mean well, providing transport for those who miss the PUJs.
but they do have to follow basic traffic policy.

[jut703]

Hinde lang private or public ang cause ng traffic yun infrastructure, undisciplined drivers...sa theory or numbers glaring talaga yun numbers ng private vs public pero mga nangyayari sa kalsada Hindd naman na pickup ng numbers eh.

Ilan beses nag stop mga buses or jeeps kung saan saan at mag cause ng traffic? Nakukuha ba ng data yan?

For example sa EDSA diba meron lang part na Traffic talaga after malagpasan mo wala na? Ano reason dahil nagbuntis na dahil naka harang na mga buses.

Kahit 10 pa private cars pero diretso lang takbo nila tapos makakarating agad sa destination na walang magbistorbo na public vehicles walanf traffic eh kung melrn isang bus na hinto magsanay tapos harsnagsng yun daanan ng 10 private cars mag traffic na yan damay damay na hanggang tumukod.

Yun sa C5 naman wala nga stop light pero nakita mo naman pag wala ng truck ban kahit middle lang sila traffic pa rin sa laki nila. Pero before and after ng truck ban wala Traffic.

Sa Taft to divisoria kaya traffic ba ngayon walang mga jeeps? Just sa cityhall traffic kaya ngayon?

So depende sa kalsada guide lang yan numbers pero dapat makita din yun actual ano ba talaga dahilan


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Siyempre hindi naman isa lang ang dahilan. Noone ever argued that undisciplined drivers and lack of infrastructure are also factors contributing to the traffic mess of Metro Manila.

The question was which contributes the most. And again back to my original post - even if we do know that private cars are the biggest contributor to traffic, we cannot eradicate them until the alternative option - better public transpo - is achieved. This, we hold the government accountable for because this is where our taxes should go.

However, because cars are the bigger contributor to traffic, before we point fingers to hapless drivers only working within the system they are dealt with, let's stay cognizant that we are also part of the problem by being part of the 2.5M cars in Metro Manila that cause most of the congestion. There is always a public transpo option but it's inconvenient - so deal with the traffic because at the end of the day it's still the more convenient option.

It's human nature to blame everyone but themselves for the problem. I'm sure that for every private car owner blaming the jeepney driver for traffic, there's a commuter blaming the private car owners for taking up so much space on the road for just one person.

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[shadow]

Hinde ko sinasabi mali ka I'm just presenting the other side albeit without numbers. [emoji23]


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[shadow]

Saan napupunta yun mga walang laman na buses during rush hour? Ka dami daming walang laman na bus buong araw eh


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[jut703]

Saan napupunta yun mga walang laman na buses during rush hour? Ka dami daming walang laman na bus buong araw eh


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Lahat napupuno pag rush hour. Pag umaga sa crossing siguro mga 3-4 buses bago makahanap ng pwedeng pagsiksikan (usually tayuan) para makabyahe ng Ayala/Buendia. Pauwi ganun din - paunahan sa bus.

So during rush hour (aka at least 12 hrs a day), kulang na kulang ang bus to serve metro manila's commuters.

Pag hindi rush hour (aka madaling araw and tanghali), sobra ang buses sa daan. Kaso, since ang pakielam lang ng bus operator is maximum profitability, kahit hindi puno ang bus papabyahe nila yan.

Kahit kalahati lang sakay ng bus, kikita na sila sa isang ikot kumpara sa igarahe yung bus tapos ilabas nalang ulit mamayang rush hour. Yung driver kasi kailangan makaboundary so di bale nang trenta lang pasahero at least 30 x 40 = 1,200 pa rin na kita yun one way.

Kaya nga kailangan ibasura ang boundary system and central ang dispatch ng bus depending on the supply and demand of passengers at that particular timeslot.

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