Doctors are leaving the country - are they abandoning those who need them the most?

[midinite]

IMHO, it all depends on how one looks at it. If you look at it through life's lens filled with facets on nationalism, moral obligation to countrymen, selflesness (others needs before yours and your familys), spritual obligation and all that jazz, then a doctor would stay - and I salute those who do. However, if you look at it through a lens filled with facets on bright future for family, better career opportunities, achieving financial success and stability and all that jazz, then a doctor would definitely move where he/she can fullfill his/her dreams and secure a better future for his/her kids.

always two sides to the coin diba? but could there be a compromise. Could those who make loads and loads outside contribute their services for example even if for only a few weeks out of the year. I know they make so much out there. I am from a family of doctors...some stayed some left. Some don't give back some do. It is the choice of the individual after all diba? There must be a way for them to band together and maybe do free clinics or something. How much money do they really need? Sometimes it is more than just to provide for a family...

[nicolodeon]

always two sides to the coin diba? ....It is the choice of the individual after all diba?

True, true - regardless of whatever ton of advice and information is given to an individual, the final choice would be his/hers - not with the people who are giving out their advice and opinion. Some would like it, some would not but thing is, it is the individual who has to live with his/her decision to either stay here or move to a foreign soil.

There must be a way for them to band together and maybe do free clinics or something. How much money do they really need? Sometimes it is more than just to provide for a family...

Well, there are a number of North America based doctors who have returned to impart what they have learned and to provide their expertise to Pinoys but these type of breed is kinda rare. Most of the time, when professioanals who had worked abroad return to the country permanently, they do so because they want to retire here.

Anyway, sabi nga: to each his own. Cynical and rude but this is the truth of the matter.

[uls]

Pinoys, by nature, and by culture, are family oriented. Not nation oriented.

Pinoys dont look beyond themselves and their loved ones. The decision making process of a pinoy is based on what effect it will have on himself and his family. No pinoy takes into consideration the effect of his decisions on the country.

Pinoys simply didnt evolve the capacity to think outside himself and his family. Pinoys don't look at the big picture.

[artpogi]

Pinoys, by nature, and by culture, are family oriented. Not nation oriented.

Pinoys dont look beyond themselves and their loved ones. The decision making process of a pinoy is based on what effect it will have on himself and his family. No pinoy takes into consideration the effect of his decisions on the country.

Pinoys simply didnt evolve the capacity to think outside himself and his family. Pinoys don't look at the big picture.

I totally agree with you on this one.

[midinite]

Pinoys, by nature, and by culture, are family oriented. Not nation oriented.

Pinoys dont look beyond themselves and their loved ones. The decision making process of a pinoy is based on what effect it will have on himself and his family. No pinoy takes into consideration the effect of his decisions on the country.

Pinoys simply didnt evolve the capacity to think outside himself and his family. Pinoys don't look at the big picture.

Could this be what is holding us back as a country? Didn't Japan have that sense of nation and that took them out of a war-ravaged country? I have seen how the Thais can be nationalistic. Same with the Vietnamese? Could that be why they will or possibly even have overtaken us?

[nicolodeon]

Could this be what is holding us back as a country? Didn't Japan have that sense of nation and that took them out of a war-ravaged country? I have seen how the Thais can be nationalistic. Same with the Vietnamese? Could that be why they will or possibly even have overtaken us?

Yes they have. I've travelled most of Asia due to my work -and I tell you this: Pilipinos are among the least nationalistic. In my opinion, we are the least nationalisic amongst Asians. For example, Cambodians who had migrated to the US and to Europe during the Khmer Rouge regime have begun to return to Cambodia to help improve their nation. East Timorese who had migrated to Australia during the height of the Indonesian agression are doing the same.

[midinite]

Yes they have. I've travelled most of Asia due to my work -and I tell you this: Pilipinos are among the least nationalistic. In my opinion, we are the least nationalisic amongst Asians. For example, Cambodians who had migrated to the US and to Europe during the Khmer Rouge regime have begun to return to Cambodia to help improve their nation. East Timorese who had migrated to Australia during the height of the Indonesian agression are doing the same.

I know...having worked on a regional role it amazes me...you are right in that sense...we are not nationalistic save for the fact that many pinoys put down other nationalities...and that is the warped sense of nationalism...kindda like racism

You also touched on a point of not being nation-oriented...that makes me worried...if we were caught in a Bataan like scenario would the guy next to me in the foxhole run away?

Just weird kasi when you listen to the stories of the old who were caught in the Death March and other incidents and banded together as a people...wonder what they would think of the modern Pinoy?

[nicolodeon]

Just weird kasi when you listen to the stories of the old who were caught in the Death March and other incidents and banded together as a people...wonder what they would think of the modern Pinoy?

They'd think the current generation sucks. That's what my late gradfather (who was a WWII veteran) told us grandkids of his - our generation lack the sense of nationalism and intestinal fortitude that can make this county great - and by golly, I think he's right.

[uls]

Yes they have. I've travelled most of Asia due to my work -and I tell you this: Pilipinos are among the least nationalistic. In my opinion, we are the least nationalisic amongst Asians. For example, Cambodians who had migrated to the US and to Europe during the Khmer Rouge regime have begun to return to Cambodia to help improve their nation. East Timorese who had migrated to Australia during the height of the Indonesian agression are doing the same.

I can sum up how the pinoy mind operates in 2 words. "Paano ako?"

With that, u can easily explain why we are in the state we are in... why we can't seem to move forward.

[oldblue]

I can sum up how the pinoy mind operates in 2 words. "Paano ako?"

With that, u can easily explain why we are in the state we are in... why we can't seem to move forward.

I believe we're moving forward. Picture a Fortuner with 5 passengers climbing Kennon road and a jampacked jeepney with 20+ passengers and baggages ... tayo yun jeepney, singapore yun fortuner hehehe but still we're moving forward even upward.

nowhere else to go but up. if all pinoys gave up and remained stagnant, hindi lang moving forward yan, digging pa yan.

mas maganda nga yan madami Filipino community sa iba't ibang bansa complete with all professions like doctors, engineers, laborers etc. para na din tayo Chinese, may Chinatown sa each and every major city in the world. if we were the CIA, that's a dream come true! lolz

[1D4LV]

dont panic.... doc otep and cutedoc are still in the house. hehehehehe.

[theveed]

Anlayo naman yung comparison sa corrupt police issue...

Being a doctor doesn't make you a saint, if your "obligation" of being a doctor is to purely help people, then don't ever charge patients a single cent or charge them only for your overhead cost (rent, utilities and staff), don't charge the "professional fee".

A higher calling should not be a profession, by definition your profession pays your bills.

[BlueBimmer]

Anlayo naman yung comparison sa corrupt police issue...

Being a doctor doesn't make you a saint, if your "obligation" of being a doctor is to purely help people, then don't ever charge patients a single cent or charge them only for your overhead cost (rent, utilities and staff), don't charge the "professional fee".

A higher calling should not be a profession, by definition your profession pays your bills.

right. kaya nga profession e. thats the only explanation needed.

[Chip]

Very interesting points.

Its all supply and demand. Even if doctors stay here, dont you think in general their quality of service would deteriorate if we paid them peanuts? Imagine the quality of work you could get if heart bypasses cost only 5K on the average with no subsidy from insurance or governments. Im pretty sure doctors(unless already financially well-off from other arrangements) wouldnt spend a whole lot of time improving their craft, attending expensive trainings, subscribing to the latest in medicine if what they were doing could not support it. Its like expecting a phoenix when all we can afford is chickenfeed.

Imagine a kanto-style carwash charging only 10 pesos. Can we blame them if they use dishwashing liquid and old rags instead of proper car shampoo and microfiber? No. Its the same thing with medical care, most of the time, you get what you pay for.

Does this mean that no good doctors will be left? Of course not, there will still be those few who are in it for the vocation and/or are already financially well-off, but in general we will lose some talented docs.

[Odo]

I think it is easy to criticize those who abandon the country and go abroad if you're not faced with the same challenges these migrating doctors have. I agree it is a sad fact that the best & brightest go abroad due to professional, financial and personal fulfillment that cannot be easily satisfied locally. That's why 10-20% of our countrymen work abroad.

The vast majority of those who work abroad probably preffer to stay here but alas they cannot if they wish for a better future. That being said it is unfortunate that the poor do not have access to medical professionals but what can they do? What can anyone do to make licensed doctors stay? Forcing them to stay and serve the country involuntarily is forced servitude and can even be considered a form of slavery. Last I checked these things are patently illegal.

Seriously though there are alternatives to medical professionals that have served the medical needs of early primitive Filipinos for centuries. Why not turn to them for treatment of the poor? I am 100% sure they wont be going off for abroad to work as medical professionals.

[Driv3er]

at least the school are now doing something about it. I was in a UST graduation last year and the speaker told the graduates that if they do want to work abroad, then they won't be blamed... "But please, come back and help your country once you have helped yourself". I forgot the name of the speaker..but hsi speech has stuck with me. Kahit na di ako doktor hehehehehehe

[m2's kumander]

sir midnite, there are also doctors who stay here and help the sick and the poor for free.

and sometimes they would even use their own money to help the sick.
doctors conduct medical missions and we have volunteer doctors as well. (doctors to the barrios).

and all of us have obligations to our contrymen.
so rather than questioning the doctor's moral obligation let's help them as well. let's pray for them and support them. there are doctors (and/medical institution) na really does care for the sick and needy but they also need our help.

so guys, if you are interested pwede naman po tumulong din eh. red cross and veterans usually conducts med. missions po.

[mikey177]

The Hippocratic oath has gone through revisions since it was first written, to make it more relevant to the changing needs of the times. In the versions I have gone through, however, I have not encountered the passage midinite mentioned about caring for "those who need them most."

Take this version from http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_modern.html

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

IMO, doctors don't have any higher a calling than engineers, firefighters, office clerks, janitors, construction workers or domestic helpers. Every honest, hardworking individual is needed to make a country move forward. If you would judge doctors by this standard, you should judge every OFW by it as well.

[midinite]

The Hippocratic oath has gone through revisions since it was first written, to make it more relevant to the changing needs of the times. In the versions I have gone through, however, I have not encountered the passage midinite mentioned about caring for "those who need them most."

Please read between the lines of the last two lines...it is the essence of it...

[mikey177]

Please read between the lines of the last two lines...it is the essence of it...

Sorry, I'm a WYSIWYG kind of guy --I like oaths to be plain and simple so I don't read between the lines. And if this were really what the oath meant, that doctors should go where they are needed the most, then I would argue that there are countries in a far worse plight than ours where medical care is in even greater shortage. Maybe that's where our doctors should go.

People don't die just because there are no doctors. People die because there is a lack of sanitary drinking water because there are no engineers to build wells. Children die because they are left alone in the home as there are no nannies to look after them. People die because architects and construction workers build substandard houses on eroded mountaintops. So why single out doctors as the cause of the country's woes?