trucks,SUVs you can't count on

[sikuya]

I totally agree! survey methods are actually statistical methods. the question is was the random sampling method really random? or where did they get their sample from?

samples came from 400,000 responses from Consumer Reports and ConsumerReports.org subscribers

[sikuya]

masyado atang picky ang gumawa ng survey na yan. i wonder what is the most reliable to them...the new land rover discovery perhaps?

Best Minivan- Honda Odyssey(2004)(03), Toyota Sienna(02)(00)(99), Mazda MPV(01)
Worst Minivan- Nissan Quest(2004), GMC Safari,Chevy Astro (03)(02)(00), Chrysler Town&Country/Dodge Grand Caravan(01), Ford Windstar(99)

Best SUV- Honda Element,Mitsubishi Endeavor,Subaru Forester (2004), Toyota Highlander (03), Toyota Land Cruiser (02), Toyota 4Runner(01), Honda CR-V(00)(99)
Worst SUV- Lincoln Navigator,Nissan Armada(2004), Volvo XC90 (03), Land Rover Freelander (02), Mercedes-Benz M-Class (01)(00), Jeep Grand Cherokee (99)

Best Truck- Toyota Tacoma (2004)(03)(02)(01)(00)(99)
Worst Truck- Dodge Dakota(AWD) (2004)(99), Chevrolet S10/GMC Sonoma (V6/AWD)(03)(02)(01)(00)

number in parenthesis denote model years

[OTEP]

I don't really believe in Consumer Reports. They're ok when it comes to microwave ovens and toasters, but they're not exactly Car&Driver when it comes to vehicles.

CR kept shouting to the world that Troopers, Samurais, and Pajeros do nothing but rollover and kill their drivers. Yeah, sure.

[Macky]

CR kept shouting to the world that Troopers, Samurais, and Pajeros do nothing but rollover and kill their drivers. Yeah, sure.

Exagerated naman yata!!! Actually it's the other way around. The car makers involved (Suzuki and Mitsu in particular) kept shouting to the world that their SUVs don't rollover and kill their drivers contrary to what CR published. They even sued CR na hanggang ngayon naka pending pa (Suzuki recently withdrawn). Notice na lahat ng nasabing car-makers, palugi na sa US (Suzuki is staying afloat thanks mainly to their Daewoo-developed car). If I were them sa safety and quality improvements ko ilalagay ang pera instead na sa mga lawyers para sa demanda nila against CR. Since safety ang issue, dun ko lalabanan ang CR. Pero it's just me..... Anyway, nasasa inyo na yan kung gusto nyong maniwala o hindi pero the point is, the consumers always win dahil lang sa mga independent studies na ginagawa ng tulad ng CR, IIHS, NHTSA, etc. Quality, reliability and safety have improved by leaps and bound because of them. Consumers nowadays are smart. Di sila bibili ng produktong hindi mapagkakatiwalaan with their family's everyday use. I have said this 5 years ago and will continue saying it: SAFETY is my #1 priority in choosing a car. At saka, hindi madaling kumita ng pera ngayon.... wala namang masama kung magre-research ka para lang makasiguradong napupunta sa tama ang hard-earned money mo. Kesa sa mga sabi-sabi ng mga barkada, dun ka na lang sa talagang nagte-test ng mga sasakyan makinig since they have REALLY ridden and tested those vehicles (hindi lang test drive).

Opinion ko lang po....

[Macky]

baka yan yun mga taong hindi makabili ng vehicles kaya nilagay nila not reliable para in denial lang sila

Galing po sa mga owners yung survey. So yung mga meron ang nag participate.... (kaya nga Consumer Reports) hehehe

[Macky]

I totally agree! survey methods are actually statistical methods. the question is was the random sampling method really random? or where did they get their sample from?

Dagdag tanong na lang din since nagkakatanungan na..... hindi kaya lugi yung mga madaming naibebentang sasakyan (i.e F150) dahil mas madamaing owners, mas madaming chances/reports na sirain? Pero come to think of it, bakit ang Camry na mabenta di masyadong nababalitang sirain? Meron bang averages used sa survey. I guess what I'm going at is that baka naman 4K yung reports tapos 50% dun e F150 owners at 20% sa kanila nag-report ng problema so 400 out of 4K na agad which is about 10% (patay, hehehe).

[OTEP]

Pinakita na sa TV yung testing method CR for rollovers. Watch it and you will see why sa CR tests lang nangyayari yun. Hindi ko alam kung matatawa ko o maiinis. Even in a real world emergency no one will respond like that. Then they slap a huge "NOT ACCEPTABLE" label on the vehicle in their magazine stories. Why not just let the consumer decide what is and what is not acceptable to them?

And SUV's are required by law to have warning labels that they handle differently. Though even before the labels were mandated, the same stuff was already in the manual. That the vehicle could potentially rollover if you do stupid things with it. Siguro hindi nagbabasa ng manual ang mga owner's. hehehe.

And the NHTSA has acknowledged that majority of rollovers are caused by 'tripping' (tripping on the curb, a mound of soil or any similar structure) and that the tires will not have enough frictional coefficient to trip the vehicle over on its own. You will really have to drive like those Arabs (who balance Patrols on two wheels) to flip your rig on a reasonably smooth road.

[Macky]

Pinakita na sa TV yung testing method CR for rollovers. Watch it and you will see why sa CR tests lang nangyayari yun. Hindi ko alam kung matatawa ko o maiinis. Even in a real world emergency no one will respond like that. Then they slap a huge "NOT ACCEPTABLE" label on the vehicle in their magazine stories. Why not just let the consumer decide what is and what is not acceptable to them?.

And SUV's are required by law to have warning labels that they handle differently. Though even before the labels were mandated, the same stuff was already in the manual. That the vehicle could potentially rollover if you do stupid things with it. Siguro hindi nagbabasa ng manual ang mga owner's. hehehe.

Anong CR test yung napanood mo? What I saw was an emergency maneuver where nag-tilt yung mga gulong ng Pajero. Not clear what the speed is pero ganun ang real world accidents sa free ways.... kakabig ka talaga to avoid something in front of you

[OTEP]

Yun nga. Ginawa sa Trooper on pontoons. Pero yung degree ng kabig ang kakaiba dun. Balak pa atang mag-counterflow, eh. hehehe. If I recall correctly, sabi ng mga test drivers sa interview na they had to practice to do it that way. Kasi nga hindi naman yun ang natural. You just swerve a lane or two away in a real evasive maneuver. You don't attempt to face the opposite direction, not even a 90 degree turn.

[Macky]

Yun nga. Ginawa sa Trooper on pontoons. Pero yung degree ng kabig ang kakaiba dun. Balak pa atang mag-counterflow, eh. hehehe. If I recall correctly, sabi ng mga test drivers sa interview na they had to practice to do it that way. Kasi nga hindi naman yun ang natural. You just swerve a lane or two away in a real evasive maneuver. You don't attempt to face the opposite direction, not even a 90 degree turn.

Magkaiba nga siguro tayo ng napanood kasi yung napanood ko may mga orange cones (yun ba yung pontoons?) na naka-set na. Parang paliku-likong slalom, hehehe. Di pedeng kumabig dun ng more than one lane swerve. All of the model year vehicles that they have tested, hindi nag-lift yung gulong kaya nga biglang bagsak agad sa test yung Pajero. Anyway, I see your point sa paggamit ng SUV. I also think na consumers not only get the right info on their vehicles but also have an idea on how to use it before buying. Then again, it's their money and they can spend it as they need be even if it they don't utilize what they buy.

Do you agree that these reports make car-makers build better quality cars though?

[mazdamazda]

here is the monteor article from CR...

http://www.consumerreports.org/stati...l#Anchor-49575

The 2001 Mitsubishi
Montero Limited
Not Acceptable
SUV TIPS UP SEVERELY IN OUR EMERGENCY AVOIDANCE-MANEUVER TEST.

...

Then something unexpected happened. In May, in one of our regular track tests for SUVs, minivans, and pickups--a short-course double-lane-change emergency-avoidance maneuver--the Montero Limited, in 8 out of 9 runs at or faster than 36.7 mph, tipped up on two wheels during a sharp right turn. In one run at 37.7 mph, it tipped up so far that the safety outriggers contacted the ground (see video below). Without the outriggers, we believe, the Montero would likely have rolled over. (We attach outriggers to all SUVs and four-wheel-drive pickups for this test to protect our drivers.)

...

Our avoidance maneuvers are designed to simulate real-world emergencies in which a driver steers sharply left into an adjacent lane--to avoid hitting an obstacle or person in the road--then quickly back to the right to avoid oncoming traffic, and left again into the original lane

...

We have found no reports of rollover crashes involving the 2001 Montero, but we believe our test results point to an unnecessary risk.

Taller vehicles such as SUVs have a higher center of gravity, which makes them more top-heavy and more susceptible to rolling over than lower vehicles such as sedans. This is why NHTSA requires that all SUVs with a wheelbase of 110 inches or less display a warning label. The one in the Montero reads, "Warning: Higher rollover risk. Avoid abrupt maneuvers and excessive speed."

looking at the illustration, it is in #1 that the vehicle started to tip over.

real world you say? the momentum of the vehicle is going to the left & you suddenly swerve again to the right again (without reducing speed I suppose). no wonder that the vehicle will tip over.

[Supierreman]

Best SUV- Honda Element,Mitsubishi Endeavor,Subaru Forester (2004), Toyota Highlander (03), Toyota Land Cruiser (02), Toyota 4Runner(01), Honda CR-V(00)(99)

Wohoo 1st Gen CR-V included

[Macky]

real world you say? the momentum of the vehicle is going to the left & you suddenly swerve again to the right again (without reducing speed I suppose). no wonder that the vehicle will tip over.

Yup. That's the one I watched. All the other vehicles they tested never tipped except for the Montero! Obviously, no one of us would want to be in a situation where we need to avoid obstacles in front of us in a free way but it would REALLY give me a peace of mind knowing that my vehicle can avoid them if need be. Mababa pa pala yung speed (about 60km/h). Speed limit in interstates are 70mph (more than 110km/h). I've seen some fogs, rains and snows with visibility of 5 feet lang!!! Minsan biglaan pa ang buhos ng ulan or biglaan na lang ang daan sa fog. Kung may aksidente (imagine NASCAR crash debris) after a curb or after the view clears (caused by rain snow or fog) or kahit na may biglang nasabugan ng gulong (ala Ford Explorers) sa harapan mo in a freeway.......

Kaya nga ba sinasabi ko lagi na hindi pa ganon ka-aware ang Pinas sa safety since our traffic there is far too different kesa iabng bansa.

Minsan na rin akong gumawa ng emergency maneuver (w/ my previous CR-V) dahil lang sa may usang biglang tumawid ng freeway (* 50mph or about 80km/h) May mga incoming traffic sa opposite lane kaya kailangan kong bumalik agad. Kasama ko buong pamilya ko nun!!! Di mo din kasi masasabi ang pangangailangan........

Again, wouldn't these surveys improve the automaker's car safety and quality?

[empy]

Dagdag tanong na lang din since nagkakatanungan na..... hindi kaya lugi yung mga madaming naibebentang sasakyan (i.e F150) dahil mas madamaing owners, mas madaming chances/reports na sirain? Pero come to think of it, bakit ang Camry na mabenta di masyadong nababalitang sirain? Meron bang averages used sa survey. I guess what I'm going at is that baka naman 4K yung reports tapos 50% dun e F150 owners at 20% sa kanila nag-report ng problema so 400 out of 4K na agad which is about 10% (patay, hehehe).

it should not be a problem if the survey is done right. what they should do is group the surveys by vehicle and treat each group as an independent sample. if they do not get a statistically significant sample size for a particular vehicle, then they should not report the results for that vehicle.

if CR did not do this, then the whole survey would be worthless.

wouldn't these surveys improve the automaker's car safety and quality?

they can and they do...so even if i think CR reviews are stupid and aimed at the lowest common denominator of car buyer, i know they are providing a valuable service - being a pain in the ass for the automakers about safety and making them be very very careful in designing their cars. it feels good considering i transport the most important people in the world in their products...

[notEworthy27]

looking at the illustration, it is in #1 that the vehicle started to tip over.

real world you say? the momentum of the vehicle is going to the left & you suddenly swerve again to the right again (without reducing speed I suppose). no wonder that the vehicle will tip over.

if it were a car, it may not really rollover like an suv. but imagine going at high speeds then doing the same. Like say at 180kph? :D

[OTEP]

Who the hell avoids an obstacle without even releasing the throttle or using the brakes? Kakaibang driving style yun ha.

[3ple4]

I think I agree with Dodge Dakota being one of the worst trucks. A few years ago, I read in a review that the Dodge Dakota is the most gas-guzzler among trucks and suv. There is consistency after all, he he!!

[afrasay]

To be safe, your driving style should differ from car to car.

[theveed]

Amen Alfred... It's stupid for a guy driving a tall vehicle to take a corner at 100kph, while a dropped exotic hitting the mountain trail...

I mean, if you're eyeing an exotic sports car, why bother reading how the car will perform off road or on slick ice roads where you shouldn't use that car is such a situation in the first place?

Or if you're shopping for an SUV, why would you bother knowing how fast it reaches 100mph...