"e-Jeepney" - The electric powered jeepney

[ghosthunter]

*Romski: para puede sa baha yung EV ninyo, can make a "sealed" containment unit ng motor with a breather. Probably make the container partly aluminium para it-doubles as heat sink na rin.

then the motor speed controller can also be contained in a similarly "sealed" unit.

Downside with sealing the motor, etc. is that it would make it more expensive and more difficult to service.

Expensive because it would require more precision manufacturing to have a close seal. Aluminum is an expensive material to use and requires a different set of equipment to weld.

Difficult to service because the seals will need to be broken to be serviced and then resealed somehow after servicing. But no 100% guarantee that it would be watertight after servicing.

At the end of the day, it will boil down to cost versus benefits. Can the system be sealed and still be "affordable"?

[roberto_minosa]

Why not place the motor high up and just connect it to a prop shaft and differential?

[jpdm]

Now all we need is a visionary leader like the Roosevelts!

But personally, I'd take high-tech small displacement (something like 1500cc) diesel engines than pushing for EVs with disposable batteries. It's simply too complicated and impractical for today. Phasing out the old large diesels will definitely help lessen fuel consumption and air pollution.

Roosevelts?

IMHO, the demented Pres. Arroyo and Vice President Noli de Castro were the ones who made possible the relocation of thousands/perhaps millions of PNR ROW squatters.

Anyway, who ever wins in 2010, either Villar or Noynoy (thats for sure), I hope they can have the same resoluteness to carry out reforms in our transportation system.

Kung hindi nila kaya ginawa ni Ate Glue Arroyo o Noli de Castro, wala silang karapatang manalo.

I will still go for e-jeepneys in the future.

And I agree with you hi-tech diesel engines with much reduced emissions that use more biodiesel...just like the diesel engines of Audi..

[romski123]

*Romski: para puede sa baha yung EV ninyo, can you make a "sealed" containment unit ng motor with a breather. Probably make the container partly aluminium para it-doubles as heat sink na rin.

then the motor speed controller can also be contained in a similarly "sealed" unit.

we will consider this suggestion and get back to you wildthing. thanks.

[romski123]

Perhaps what government should do, is buy a fleet of these e-jeepneys, operate them and show to the public that it can be a viable mode of public transportation.

How the government will buy them and manage it is another story.

the Makati governent will be testing it out. They will launch ejeepney routes by november. We'll see how it goes.

[wildthing]

watersealed motor - we will consider this suggestion and get back to you wildthing. thanks.

that technic is how we do it with Radio Controlled Cars (on my "rock crawlers")

DC motors are generally water resistant... but the murky putik ng real-life baha will definitely damage the motor/bearings etc. So having it "sealed" will be good.

Electronics in sealed containment units are easy... we usually just use silicon gasket makers or have the electronics dipped in water sealers (I forgot the brand).

[ghosthunter]

that technic is how we do it with Radio Controlled Cars (on my "rock crawlers")

DC motors are generally water resistant... but the murky putik ng real-life baha will definitely damage the motor/bearings etc. So having it "sealed" will be good.

Electronics in sealed containment units are easy... we usually just use silicon gasket makers or have the electronics dipped in water sealers (I forgot the brand).

Water proofing solutions that work in the small scale (like RC) sometimes don't scale up well.

Anyway, won't the electronics have a problem if they are fully coated with a water sealer? I am thinking about the electronics heating up too much due to the fact that it's coated by a layer that probably works well as a heat insulator as well. In an RC, it won't be an issue since it would only operate for a few minutes but with a full scale car, the electronics would need to work for hours without a break.

[ghosthunter]

Why not place the motor high up and just connect it to a prop shaft and differential?

It would complicate the rather "simple" installation and also increase the cost & complexity of the project many fold with little gain.

[ghosthunter]

But personally, I'd take high-tech small displacement (something like 1500cc) diesel engines than pushing for EVs with disposable batteries. It's simply too complicated and impractical for today. Phasing out the old large diesels will definitely help lessen fuel consumption and air pollution.

"High tech" has it's own problems like who is going to maintain it and how much would it cost. The biggest advantage of old diesel engines is they seem to last forever, even if they have other problems like bad emissions and less efficient.

[OyiL]

Water proofing solutions that work in the small scale (like RC) sometimes don't scale up well.

Anyway, won't the electronics have a problem if they are fully coated with a water sealer? I am thinking about the electronics heating up too much due to the fact that it's coated by a layer that probably works well as a heat insulator as well. In an RC, it won't be an issue since it would only operate for a few minutes but with a full scale car, the electronics would need to work for hours without a break.

not all. most of the time, only the drivers need heat-sinking. the other components are able to manage 70deg C continuously. military grades can withstand 120deg C.

[wildthing]

Water proofing solutions that work in the small scale (like RC) sometimes don't scale up well.

Anyway, won't the electronics have a problem if they are fully coated with a water sealer? I am thinking about the electronics heating up too much due to the fact that it's coated by a layer that probably works well as a heat insulator as well. In an RC, it won't be an issue since it would only operate for a few minutes but with a full scale car, the electronics would need to work for hours without a break.

It would be difficult to debate with a genius on this issue.

First thing, you don't know anything about profesional grade R/Cs (because you are not into the hobby)... they are actually better equipped than you think. You are talking of a small scale R/C running as high as 300Amperes of current heating up to the point of burning... but they don't (unless the set-up as stupidly done).

I rest my case, I'll just leave it to romski to look into the possibility of my suggestion.

[kitsons]

IMHO, this e-jeeps wont be able to ford Manila's flooded streets.

They would be best relegated to short distances like the Mall-"ikot" shuttles. One more observation though, the shuttles operated by SM outside MOA perimeter used to be electric vehicles when they first introduced it. Now they are all gas engine vehicles. There may be some lessons here.

Did a cost comparison using Meralco electricity rates and what came out was shocking in that equivalent to a litter of dieasel fuel which costed then around P31 / li., using electrticity to run the same mileage as that of a liter of diesel cost around P200 at meralco rate of P22/kwh.

Forgot the figures so could have had an oversight. Will try to set up the configuration again if I find the source of the charging time and needed kilowat. As I rememberit was something like a five digit figure needed to fully chare the e-vehicle to run around 95 - 135 kilometers.

Based on as the max of 24 kph fuel consumption, conservative estaimate of 6 liters of diesel is required which is P180 at P30/li \.

At P22/kph 20 kwh would be P440 What I read is that it takes 2 hours to fully charge the e-vehicle to run 95 - 135 km. Mahal.

Only reason the e-jeepneys of mkti is alive is that electricity charge is minimal as it comes from the waste of mkti.

Kit

[kitsons]

It would be difficult to debate with a genius on this issue.

First thing, you don't know anything about profesional grade R/Cs (because you are not into the hobby)... they are actually better equipped than you think. You are talking of a small scale R/C running as high as 300Amperes of current heating up to the point of burning... but they don't (unless the set-up as stupidly done).

I rest my case, I'll just leave it to romski to look into the possibility of my suggestion.

WHOA guys! was enjoying the technical exchange here since am a greenhorn on the technical details of your discussion. La lang personalan and I think the exchange would help us al in coming up with solutions than bust ourselves up that we all end up losing.

Forgot who suggested lifting up the e-motor. Would this be feasible without too much loss of torque?

Seems your discussion on sealing seems to be equal that perhaps thinking out of the box of the discussion maybe something worth considering.

[ghosthunter]

It would be difficult to debate with a genius on this issue.

Well, sorry for being human. Maybe you can tell us how it is being a troll as you seem to know more about being that, eh?

First thing, you don't know anything about profesional grade R/Cs (because you are not into the hobby)... they are actually better equipped than you think. You are talking of a small scale R/C running as high as 300Amperes of current heating up to the point of burning... but they don't (unless the set-up as stupidly done).

My experience in electric R/Cs are limited to that days back in my teens when I was in that hobby.

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My advise, if you don't have much to say or add to the conversation, it might be better NOT to say anything.

[ghosthunter]

Forgot who suggested lifting up the e-motor. Would this be feasible without too much loss of torque?

Seems your discussion on sealing seems to be equal that perhaps thinking out of the box of the discussion maybe something worth considering.

It's possible but I think it would just add weight, cost and complexity that would have limited benefits and that it could be avoided by making it waterproof.

I am just concerned that lifting the motor would result in having more parts in the drive train and that can add extra load on the motor due to drive inefficiency. That would hamper the already limited range of the batteries.

[niky]

*kitsons: Are you sure? Are you using the numbers for the motor or the charging system? The charging amperage, as far as I remember, is different from the motor output. Electrics usually cost lest per kilometer calculated strictly on direct energy usage.

It would be difficult to debate with a genius on this issue.

First thing, you don't know anything about profesional grade R/Cs (because you are not into the hobby)... they are actually better equipped than you think. You are talking of a small scale R/C running as high as 300Amperes of current heating up to the point of burning... but they don't (unless the set-up as stupidly done).

I rest my case, I'll just leave it to romski to look into the possibility of my suggestion.

You're talking RCs... RCs which have a maximum battery life of from 5-15 minutes, typically... as opposed to a car which is expected to run from 1-2 hours in Manila traffic. Note that RC engines (both electric and gasoline) wear out much, much more quickly than full-sized car engines. It's a legitimate question.

Bigger motors require more cooling, and road cars don't have the open bodywork of a car... There are more reliable motors out there, nowadays, but you always have to keep in mind the cost-benefit ratio... "military-grade" means just one thing to me... expensive. You want your traction motors light, inexpensive and easy-to-service.

It's not an impossible task to waterproof an electric motor... (pump motors come to mind... but then again, those are actually cooled by the water around them!)... it's just a matter of extra weight and cost. The difficult part is waterproofing the entire electrical system... all the wires and connections, ECUs and controllers, that make up the electrical system.

[ghosthunter]

Did a cost comparison using Meralco electricity rates and what came out was shocking in that equivalent to a litter of dieasel fuel which costed then around P31 / li., using electrticity to run the same mileage as that of a liter of diesel cost around P200 at meralco rate of P22/kwh.

Forgot the figures so could have had an oversight. Will try to set up the configuration again if I find the source of the charging time and needed kilowat. As I rememberit was something like a five digit figure needed to fully chare the e-vehicle to run around 95 - 135 kilometers.

Based on as the max of 24 kph fuel consumption, conservative estaimate of 6 liters of diesel is required which is P180 at P30/li .

At P22/kph 20 kwh would be P440 What I read is that it takes 2 hours to fully charge the e-vehicle to run 95 - 135 km. Mahal.

Only reason the e-jeepneys of mkti is alive is that electricity charge is minimal as it comes from the waste of mkti.

Kit

It might be possible that five figure cost of operating the e-jeepney is based on my posted calculation which included the replacement cost of batteries divided over the life of the battery pack (assumed on the life of the battery pack to be 1.5 years)?

[wildthing]

...My experience in electric R/Cs are limited to that days back in my teens when I was in that hobby.

:lol ano yun Auldey .... ay matatanda ka na rin nga pala, Nikko siguro yun .... bwuahahaha... those are "toys" not hobby RCs.

With your meager experience in RCs you won't know what I was suggesting about "sealing" the motor and the electronics method.

In our hobby, we are protecting our motors and electronics because our RC cost around P15,000 (at least) to as much as P100,000. It would be stupid for us not to protect them from water... so we all learn and practice "stupid" things to make our toys run... even when it is raining or trailing it sa putikan (where it is more fun) and in my case, even "swimming" sa baha.

The motors that we use sometimes cost about P7,000 to 12,000 and the matching ESC (motor controllers) for those motors are about double that amount... (I hope my wife don't get to see this post... hehehe 1/10th lang din kasi ang declared gastos ko dito e)

Now please tell me if these are your types of "teenage hobby" you are refering too.

Romski clearly would understand more on the ideas I was presenting ... unlike an "alapao" or a miron.

No wonder you are not invited sa PhUV Private forum, manggugulo ka lang duon.

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Moderator's Note: trolling parts removed - Ghosthunter

[wildthing]

....You're talking RCs... RCs which have a maximum battery life of from 5-15 minutes, typically... as opposed to a car which is expected to run from 1-2 hours in Manila traffic. Note that RC engines (both electric and gasoline) wear out much, much more quickly than full-sized car engines. It's a legitimate question.

Bigger motors require more cooling, and road cars don't have the open bodywork of a car... There are more reliable motors out there, nowadays, but you always have to keep in mind the cost-benefit ratio... "military-grade" means just one thing to me... expensive. You want your traction motors light, inexpensive and easy-to-service.

It's not an impossible task to waterproof an electric motor... (pump motors come to mind... but then again, those are actually cooled by the water around them!)... it's just a matter of extra weight and cost. The difficult part is waterproofing the entire electrical system... all the wires and connections, ECUs and controllers, that make up the electrical system.

I beg to disaggree, RC are 1/10th scale, we run RCs on a 5000mAh at around 30-70kph (70kph might be an exageration) at around 15mins max before we fully drain the batteries.... on a scale speed that is 300 to 700 kph, and about 150mins (2.5hours).

We don't run and stress real engines to 300kph for 2.5 hours unless we are talking of F1 cars, don't we?!?

Anther fact, if you run the 1/10th scale rc at say 20kph max... it will probably last you an 1 hour to drain a 5000mAh battery. So on 1:1 scale that would mean 200kph for 10 hours.... 2000kilometers yata yun at almost whole day of driving.... Aparri to Matnog na siguro yun.

Now, you did say water cooling the water pump... then why can we not do that to the same electric motor ng e-jeepney?!? Di ba ganun din naman yung standard engined (water-cooled)... except the VW and Porshe

Why not water jacket an electric motor of the e-jeepney? Cooling it more efficiently and sealing it from flood waters at the same time....

I remember, the scale boat RC motors are waterjacketed para lumamig faster.... but they don't have radiators... they use other technique.

Now tell me if RCs can not inspire making a good electric vehicle?!?

[wildthing]

As for the electronics sealing... make a sealed container of those electronic parts (like ECU) that is like the korean "lock-n-lock" plastic wares. Sealed when lock and can be opened for servicing.

BTW * Romski,

are you using "brushed" motors on the e-jeepney project? If YES, then maybe you should try a "brushless" variant... preferably a "coreless" one perhaps. These are among the most powerfull and yet energy efficient motors we use in RCs.

I am sure, there are industrial motors na ganun na ang technology. Maintenance free na halos ang brushless kasi walang napupudpod na brush... but you will need a different motor controller.