Toyota Fortuner new turbo vs. Montero V-GT

[BRIAN]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_4M4_engine

Ang sinasabi na 4M41 VGT is sa pajero year 2006 to 2009 1st gen

2nd gen yun 200hp sa pajero also

Mas lumabo ang comparison napunta ng pajero

[Walter]

Arsen: Hindi ko max siado naintindihan ang explanation mo. Hahaha.

[green eagle]

Arsen: Hindi ko max siado naintindihan ang explanation mo. Hahaha.

My understanding of Arsen's conclusions is that sa acceleration (from 1st to 4th gear), due to a lower gear ratio & higher torque at lower rpms of the Fortuner, it will get ahead of the Montero. I suspected that when I earlier posted my inquiry as to which SUV has the lower gear ratio. In a drag race, logically, the car which shifts faster to a higher gear has some advantage - even if its hp rating is lower than the other - because it keeps its wheels spinning faster at a correspondingly faster rate.
Additionally, zix posted that the Fortuner is lighter than the Montero. On paper, then, a lighter weighing auto + faster acceleration is a potent set-up for a drag race winner.
Of course, in the long run, the Montero would outpace its counterpart owing to more horses in its power plant.

[▅▆█ JASPER █▆▅]

Syempre iba parin level ng prado compared sa fortuner. May hierarchy yan syempre.

[Starex_Gold]

Syempre iba parin level ng prado compared sa fortuner. May hierarchy yan syempre.

Aba syempre, "Land Cruiser" na yan eh :naughty2:

Actually sinadya yun kasi ang Prado naman hindi lang pang-ASEAN market eh. Kaya mas mataas ang torque, mas pang-hardcore ang Prado.

[BRIAN]

Aba syempre, "Land Cruiser" na yan eh :naughty2:

Actually sinadya yun kasi ang Prado naman hindi lang pang-ASEAN market eh. Kaya mas mataas ang torque, mas pang-hardcore ang Prado.

so sa pajero ganyan din. tama pala hula ko kasi mas hi-end

[gundam]

Weak Ang a/t ng montero.
Kung na analyze ko lang agad di na ko bumili.
Bukod tangi, ito lang yata ang nakita ko na yung torque sa halip na tapatan yung output ng m/t ay na reduce pa. Yung iba na multiply eh sya na divide or reduce.
Kaya siguro tinigil nila yung glx-v para di mapansin yung discrepancy ng torque.
Kaya yang torque ng brandnew na a/t monty VGT is comparable to a 5 y/o m/t glx-v with sliding clutch. Hahaha

[babynos01]

Weak Ang a/t ng montero.
Kung na analyze ko lang agad di na ko bumili.
Bukod tangi, ito lang yata ang nakita ko na yung torque sa halip na tapatan yung output ng m/t ay na reduce pa. Yung iba na multiply eh sya na divide or reduce.
Kaya siguro tinigil nila yung glx-v para di mapansin yung discrepancy ng torque.
Kaya yang torque ng brandnew na a/t monty VGT is comparable to a 5 y/o m/t glx-v with sliding clutch. Hahaha

In transmissions, sa third party kumukuha ang mga car makers. Toyota and mitsu use aisin, in which toyota has a share.
Nagkakaiba sila sa final gear ratio and control system. Yung control system ang pinaka importante kasi pwede mo iprogram yung response ng transmission. So far, yung tranny ng montero mabilis mag shift compared to our other cars.

Since nabangit narin yung tranny ng 3.2 pajero na rated at 450Nm, uk models have torque of 441Nm.
Now, pwede ba natin tawagin na 't*nga' ang mitsubishi kasi yung tranny na ginamit is always working at 98% load?
Ewan.haha. May losses naman sa transmission e. Pero yung rated torque na yan, around 65% to 70% percent lang yan ng max torque na kayang ihandle. maybe even less.

[arsen]

In transmissions, sa third party kumukuha ang mga car makers. Toyota and mitsu use aisin, in which toyota has a share.
Nagkakaiba sila sa final gear ratio and control system. Yung control system ang pinaka importante kasi pwede mo iprogram yung response ng transmission. So far, yung tranny ng montero mabilis mag shift compared to our other cars.

Since nabangit narin yung tranny ng 3.2 pajero na rated at 450Nm, uk models have torque of 441Nm.
Now, pwede ba natin tawagin na 't*nga' ang mitsubishi kasi yung tranny na ginamit is always working at 98% load?
Ewan.haha. May losses naman sa transmission e. Pero yung rated torque na yan, around 65% to 70% percent lang yan ng max torque na kayang ihandle. maybe even less.

Mitsu losses the auto-tranny division Diamondmatic when Daimler-Chrysler took over the control of Mitsu early 2000? Sa Nissan controlled Jatco napunta ang Diamondmatic.

So dalawa bale main source ng Mitsu at nawalan na sila sariling kumpanya ng pwedeng gumawa ng kung ano man ang nais nila sa auto-tranny nila.

I think, kaya mabilis response ng tranny ng Mitsu ay kita naman na sobra-sobra ang torque input. Ayaw nila mababad sa low gearing to protect the internal brakes and clutches.

Basically. nasa 1st gear ang may pinakamaraming brakes and clutches na kailangan para mag COUNTER-Torque sa torque input ng engine to produce a leverage in the planetary gear system ng tranny.

So kung gentle ka sa paglaunch ng auto-tranny na vehicle less slip sa torque converter less slip din sa mga internal brakes and clutches. Less chances din na magkulay sunog (itim) ang ATF.

By the way rated torque ng auto-tranny is the rated torque INPUT.

So kung 450 ang capacity (rated torque INPUT) ng tranny then 410 lang ang input ng engine, that is very good. At saka pwedeng-pwede pa mag add ng enhancement like chips.

[babynos01]

441Nm input torque to a 450Nm rated tranny is bad na, even if that 450Nm is not the maximum. Lahat naman ng manufacturers add compensation to their designs e. Paano pa kung nag add ka ng chip. Pero siguro naman na re-regulate ng TCM yung enhancement.

Ang maganda sa mitsu yung programming ng TCM nila. Medyo inclined sa sporty feeling. Mabilis yung shifting ng gears (yung time of shift from gear 1 to 2, etc). Yung sa Tucson namin, medyo mabagal e. Feel mo yung delay.

And yes, yung 4AT and 5AT ng montero low speed gearing. haha.

[arsen]

441Nm input torque to a 450Nm rated tranny is bad na, even if that 450Nm is not the maximum. Lahat naman ng manufacturers add compensation to their designs e. Paano pa kung nag add ka ng chip. Pero siguro naman na re-regulate ng TCM yung enhancement.

Ang maganda sa mitsu yung programming ng TCM nila. Medyo inclined sa sporty feeling. Mabilis yung shifting ng gears (yung time of shift from gear 1 to 2, etc). Yung sa Tucson namin, medyo mabagal e. Feel mo yung delay.

And yes, yung 4AT and 5AT ng montero low speed gearing. haha.

Oppps 441 pala... hahaha.. kaya ko nasabi meron enough room pa for improvement kasi 410 lang ang pagkakabasa ko.

Yes you are right. Its only the "rated" (not the "ultimate" ) meron syempre safety factor so that the tranny can last 5years at maximum failure rate of 10%. Nasabi ko to kasi nasa 10percent lang usually ang profit ng OEM sa complete product to stay at competitive price. So at worst case, kahit mag fail ang 10% break-even lang.... heheh

Babawiin naman yan ng OEM sa spare parts kung saan 25 to 50% ang patong.... kita-kits na lang after the warranty ika nga.

[niky]

On-paper numbers mean nothing. In actual practice, the AT and MT versions of the Montero 4x2 with the 178 hp motor both get to 100 kmh in around the same time.

[jess25strada]

Kahit diesel may redline. Puwede ba namang wala.

Plus one ako dyan!


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[vwaudimb]

Thank you mga sir's for the clarification. I was undecided between the two suv. My brother-in law has a 2010 MS as well, so the V should be a better MS.

[niky]

Still too much. Data suggests no more than a 0.5 second Interruption in acceleration per shift. If you're taking 2 seconds per shift, you are better off with an auto. Even the worst auto has no more than a 1 second interruption in acceleration. Amongst us testers, that's already considered an eternity.

[gundam]

Thanks arsen, niky.

Medyo kulang yung words. Modify ko na lang : 4 average built/weight pinoy passengers and a non pro average driver. And yung #2 usually pala 60-100 kph test (maybe to simulate how fast a car can overtake.

Sa graph naman, there are differences. Don' t know how significant but math/numbers is an exact science. I think its safe to conclude na 4sp a/t monty vgt will not produce the same HP/TORQUE as the 5sp a/t monty vgt. Sad but true. And worst is we buyers/owners of 1st batch of vgt have been cheated or decieved by MitsuMPC for they publish a wrong figure ( from 5 sp a/t monty vgt ).

I'm just saying.
Wooosaaahhh. Back to topic.

[niky]

Math can tell you lots of things, but math based on factory figures will not usually match real world results 1:1.

60-100 is very difficult to measure. If you extract it from the 0-100 km/h time, the "buwelo" from a good launch will carry over. If the launch sucks, the 60-100 is slower.

And if you do 60-100 from a roll.. how are you doing it? Drive 60 then roll on the pedal? You have two problems. What gear are you in, and how long does the engine take to respond?

What happens if you are driving 60.1? Then the data recorder measures a much longer time. If you're starting from 59, then the lag in the response from the engine is not recorded by the data recorder, so 60-100 is faster. If you start from 50, then you have "buwelo" by the time the recorder starts recording, so your 60-100 is much, much faster.

60-100 times for the MS are in the 6.5 second range. Which is why i called foul on the 9 second claim for 0-100 earlier. With a 6.5 second 60-100, you'd need to do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds. Not gonna happen without 500 horsepower.

Take into account the lack of "buwelo", transmission response and throttle lag, that's around 7.5 - 8.5 seconds in practice.

[eido]

Which is why i called foul on the 9 second claim for 0-100 earlier. With a 6.5 second 60-100, you'd need to do 0-60 in 2.5 seconds. Not gonna happen without 500 horsepower.

Take into account the lack of "buwelo", transmission response and throttle lag, that's around 7.5 - 8.5 seconds in practice.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/713/0to100.jpg

my best time. i'm using an suv with less than 500hp. taken with android speedview phone is motorola defy. not sure how accurate is the gps on my phone but i'm pretty sure i went beyond 100kph

[niky]

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

my best time. i'm using an suv with less than 500hp. taken with android speedview phone is motorola defy. not sure how accurate is the gps on my phone but i'm pretty sure i went beyond 100kph

Cellphone GPS has a refresh rate of 1 Hz. that's 1 refresh per second. So that 7 seconds should, theoretically be, anywhere between 6-8 seconds... right?

Not really. You have to consider that the 1 second refresh rate means it can start timing 1 second late, and stop timing 1 second early. Thus your 7 seconds could be anywhere between 5-9 seconds. And that's not taking into account processor lag, since the phone is usually multitasking, and the lack of resolution from the GPS receiver and on-board motion sensors... I've seen phones start to time up to 2 seconds after the launch. Sometimes, the launch doesn't even trigger the GPS timer!

Anyway, Speedview sucks. Get "Car Performance". Even the "free" variant of the app shows increments of 10 km/h, 60 foot times and 0-100 + 0-400 meter times, which both show you how woefully off a cellphone can be and can help you correct for errors in timing. Load that on your phone and go out.

Do several 0-100 km/h runs (or several 0-60 runs). Even on a perfect day, with a car that doesn't heat soak, each run will be wildly different. I used Car Performance at the time, because it had the best resolution of any phone-based datalogger, but it was woefully inadequate for my purposes unless I did a lot of testing. With the V-Box, I could do just three runs and call it a day.

-

For reasonably accurate timing, we use the Racelogic V-Box. Our "cheap" V-Box has a 10 Hz GPS chip. Which means it refreshes every 0.1 seconds. Thus, it's typically accurate to a tenth of a second, and you can do a dozen drag runs and have them all within 0.1 seconds of each other, if you're consistent.

-

A lot of performance depends on weight and gearing. An Explorer or CX9 with just under 300 hp hits 100 km/h in around 9 seconds, but a Forester with 300 hp would do it in 7 seconds. (all automatic).

[arsen]

Thanks arsen, niky.

Medyo kulang yung words. Modify ko na lang : 4 average built/weight pinoy passengers and a non pro average driver. And yung #2 usually pala 60-100 kph test (maybe to simulate how fast a car can overtake.

MS and Driver only (flat road and calm wind)
Using 2nd gear 60-100kph in 5.87 seconds (pero nasa redline 4200rpm na ang makina) your average acceleration is 2.07m/sec^2, you will need at least 36meters of space (formula = 0.5 x acceleration x square of time)
Using 3rd gear 60-100kph in 8.96 seconds. your average acceleration is 1.31m/sec^2, you will need at least 53meters of space (0.5 x 1.31m/s^2 x (8.96s)^2)

MS and Driver + 1px * 80kgs (flat road and calm wind)
Using 2nd gear 60-100kph in 6.09 seconds (pero nasa redline 4200rpm na ang makina) your average acceleration is 1.99m/sec^2, you will need at least 37meters of space
Using 3rd gear 60-100kph in 9.32 seconds. your average acceleration is 1.26m/sec^2, you will need at least 55meters of space

MS and Driver + 4px * 80kgs each (flat road and calm wind)
Using 2nd gear 60-100kph in 6.75 seconds (pero nasa redline 4200rpm na ang makina) your average acceleration is 1.78m/sec^2, you will need at least 41meters of space
Using 3rd gear 60-100kph in 10.41 seconds. your average acceleration is 1.12m/sec^2, you will need at least 61meters of space

Sa graph naman, there are differences. Don' t know how significant but math/numbers is an exact science. I think its safe to conclude na 4sp a/t monty vgt will not produce the same HP/TORQUE as the 5sp a/t monty vgt. Sad but true. And worst is we buyers/owners of 1st batch of vgt have been cheated or decieved by MitsuMPC for they publish a wrong figure ( from 5 sp a/t monty vgt ).

I'm just saying.
Wooosaaahhh. Back to topic.

The difference is on the gear. The gear multiplies the torque so you can feel better acceleration in 5AT compared with 4AT.
But this is true only during the initial launch of the vehicle.

once nasa 3rd gear na ang 4AT then nasa 4th gear naman ang 5AT halos patas na ang laban kasi 1:1 na ang gear ratio ng transmission.