Mitsubishi Montero Sudden Acceleration Accidents [MERGED]

[car_fan]

Masyadong simple yun test. Brakes can also be controlled by the electronic control module (i.e. Stabilty control, etc.). Kung walang ecu errors at the time of test, syempre gagana lahat ng instruments including brakes.

[Monseratto]

SUA was never proven...Even the Audi and Toyota cases in the US, the NHTSA never found evidence of computer/electronic fault.

NASA did not find an electronic cause of large throttle openings that can result in UA incidents. NHTSA did not find a vehicle-based cause of those incidents in addition to those causes already addressed by Toyota recalls.

NHTSA-NASA Study of Unintended Acceleration in Toyota Vehicles | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

Subsequently, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concluded that the majority of unintended acceleration cases, including all the ones that prompted the 60 Minutes report, were caused by driver error such as confusion of pedals.

From 2002 to 2009 there were many defect petitions made to the NHTSA regarding unintended acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles, but many of them were determined to be caused by pedal misapplication, and the NHTSA noted that there was no statistical significance showing that Toyota vehicles had more SUA incidents than other manufacturers. Other investigations were closed because the NHTSA found no evidence that a defect existed.

[oj88]

The TPG folks are coming off the idea that all Monteros are defect-free... or if the problem did exist, that it can be easily reproduced (ie. stomping on the gas pedal, dropping the gear at WOT, etc.) Respect to them, but I think that their position which they expressed in all absolute certainty that the problem does not exist, is a slap in the face on the victims that sincerely claim that it did.

Just saying.

[gundam]

Naalala ko na naman tuloy.
Corruption na naman at incompetence ng government. Pero OT na yun.

Dapat investigate na car, there might be random codes or ghost in the machine.
MSCP members knows their car very well, some are even modified to maximize power but have not read case like these.
Test yung driver. People contends that its prone to mistake, but still at the end of the day the question is who made the mistake.

[Monseratto]

And you thought MS SUA cases are one too many... But do you hear of local Hyundai SUAs?

Hyundai and Kia Rank 1st and 2nd in Sudden Unintended Acceleration
Real-time News
Friday, September 18th, 2015
BY JUNG YEON-JIN (INFO*KOREAITTIMES.COM)


Hyundai Motor came out on top in the number of sudden unintended accelerations (SUA) among domestic car brands.

Hyundai Motor accounted for 43.6 percent (210 cases) of the 482 reports of SUA in cars from 2010 to the end of July 2015, Rep. Kang Dong-won of the main opposition New Politics Alliance for Democracy (NPAD), who’s on the National Assembly Land Infrastructure and Transport Committee, said Thursday during an annual parliamentary audit of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, and Transport.


Hyundai was followed by Kia with 78 cases (16.2 percent) and Renault Samsung with 71 cases (14.7 percent).
Of the SUA complaints, 43.4 percent (209 vehicles) were accompanied by airbag malfunctions -- 88 Hyundai, 33 Kia, 33 Renault Samsung and 17 SsangYong Motor vehicles. Among foreign car brands, Mercedes Benz and Toyota were responsible for 4 and 5 reports of SUA in cars, respectively.


An analysis of vehicles with SUA problems also revealed that vehicles manufactured in 2006-2010 made up 40.5% (195) of the SUA complaints and those manufactured in 2011-2014 41.7 percent (201). By fuel type, gasoline-powered vehicles took 49.0 percent (236), diesel-powered ones 24.3 percent (117) and LPG-powered ones 24.1 percent (116).

[Monseratto]

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[fireice2]

hard to do with M/T. hehehe

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[fireice2]

hard to do with M/T. hehehe

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/QUOTE]

[CVT]

Bakit sa MT wala namang SUA
nanggugulo lang po

Good point bro.,- unless the accelerator fly by wire implementation of the AT is different from that of the MT....

Another thing is that if the chamber was flooded by diesel fuel because of intermittent fuel injectors,- it can run havoc both for MT and AT variants,- so why AT only?

All it takes is just 1 bit of misplaced data sa electronic control module. Boom! Imagine, Volkswagen can program the car to cheat the emission test? It's that easy! Same goes for making a mistake with the source code for the embedded system. It's that easy! It's also that easy to cover up and sweep under the rug.

It may not be just a bit of misplaced data bro,- but a series of bits of misplaced data[like a ladder AtoD series],- to simulate the analog output of a wired accelerator,- so,- a good number of combinations that may be hard to replicate in a real world, plus the associated checks and controls.

Anyway,- the case of the Volkswagen cheating, as we should all know, is deliberate to fool regulation-tests, so should not be compared.

I have done mission-critical machine language and portable low level language programming/coding in the past (both from training and work), and I can say with certainty that it is quite remote for this to happen,- unless there is a subroutine somewhere that is intended to run randomly[again-deliberate] and was not caught by succeeding quality and reliability checks.

However, based on my separate limited experience serving/supplying the automotive industry,- their qualification and reliability testing requirements are extremely stringent, both SW and HW, nearly military grade. Run-ins for tens of thousands of hours are typical to make sure that systems are practically bullet-proof.

And even a small glitch like a power window not performing as intended,- will make the life of the supplier freeze like hell,- with the (collateral) supply chain turned upside down,- because recalls are expensive and they lose precious market share, because of public opinion.

Sharing my limited experience on this concerning topic.


"The measure of a man is what he does with power" LJIOHF!

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[car_fan]

Sa MT, probably lesser routines to do/monitor yun ecm. I.e. Gear shifting in auto is mostlikely controlled by the ecm based on driver input and sensor feedback from the engine. Unlike in mt, the gear shifting is controlled manually. So probably, the firmware for MTs are relatuvely less compkicated compared to those for ATs. In turn, makikng it less likely to committ mistakes in the codes.

[CVT]

Sa MT, probably lesser routines to do/monitor yun ecm. I.e. Gear shifting in auto is mostlikely controlled by the ecm based on driver input and sensor feedback from the engine. Unlike in mt, the gear shifting is controlled manually. So probably, the firmware for MTs are relatuvely less compkicated compared to those for ATs. In turn, makikng it less likely to committ mistakes in the codes.

The main ingredient in the SUA is the high revving engine. Now, my simple mind tells me that it should be independent on whether the variant is AT or MT....

Shifting the AT to D,- could have a trigger on the engine, as it "electrically engages" the FBW accelerator,- but to what extent,- we do not know for certain, vs. shifting the M/T to 1st gear,- which also BTW "electrically engages" the FBW accelerator....



"The measure of a man is what he does with power" LJIOHF!

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[jick.cejoco]

Slim possibility of program bugs. Maybe hardware problem, driver fatigue, accelerator/brake pedal ergonomics, driver error. At one point, jeep Cherokees had ergonomics problem-the floor hump above the transmission bell housing was wide making the accelerator pedal scoot to the left and had the driver's right foot apply both accelerator and brake pedal during panic stops. Same thing with HMMWV(hummer)

[oj88]

Agree that the ECM/PCM setup of an A/T model is a lot more complex. And many victims insists that the engine went to WOT as soon as the gear shift was set to R or D without touching the gas pedal. A few even mentioned that the engine remained at WOT even after they've evacuated the vehicle.

That could indicate a hardware or software transient fault.

(Transient Fault - A short term - non periodic fault - after which the process returns to a normal running state.)

[car_fan]

Just reposting this article from EDN where toyota settled out of court with SUA class suit. Toyota's killer firmware: Bad design and its consequences | EDN

An independent inspection of toyota's firmware says that stack overflow can cause SAUs and that the quality of the firmware was "unreasonable". So we cannot outright rule out a software bug unless someone independent inspects the software code. Kung baga sa chess mas magaling ang miron kaysa sa player. Kaya it's a standard across almost all industries ang independent validation/check ng kung anu man critical task na ginawa/tinrabaho mo.

[CVT]

[

Just reposting this article from EDN where toyota settled out of court with SUA class suit. Toyota's killer firmware: Bad design and its consequences | EDN

An independent inspection of toyota's firmware says that stack overflow can cause SAUs and that the quality of the firmware was "unreasonable". So we cannot outright rule out a software bug unless someone independent inspects the software code. Kung baga sa chess mas magaling ang miron kaysa sa player. Kaya it's a standard across almost all industries ang independent validation/check ng kung anu man critical task na ginawa/tinrabaho mo.

That is the critical function of the quality and reliability checks, plus the actual run-ins for x amount of hours.... So, absolutely, there should be no shortcuts here.

Now, stack usage [normally used in jumps/returns - push and pop routines] is critical, and its memory address should be assigned where there are a lot of [memory] room to spare. Plus, if at all possible, should be independent of the main memory so that it will not crawl into the main program, where it will wreak havoc in the program. It is a programmer's lack of foresight and anticipation on its actual use and so it should be caught downstream during the development/testing stages.



"The measure of a man is what he does with power" LJIOHF!

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[car_fan]

We wont know how different the firmware designs are for both MTs and ATs. We can only pray that our car manufacturers do not take SUA reports for granted be it fact or farce.

Mitsubishi has probably taken steps internally, since wala naman yatang SUA claims for newer models? And did they add the brake override feature on the newer models? Parang ang marketing is to prevent and control the brakes if ever there was misapplication of the accelerator. That's how they arr marketing it 😁

[anonemus]

Published last March 30 pa

The truth about Sudden Unintended Acceleration - The Inside Man http://www.autoindustriya.com/the-in...eleration.html

[Monseratto]

Published last March 30 pa

The truth about Sudden Unintended Acceleration - The Inside Man http://www.autoindustriya.com/the-in...eleration.html

^

Numbers is not proof

Even if all unhappy Montero owners and the 4,000 or 400,000 names posted the same SUA story above on social media, it still not enough proof. Viva Voce or strength in numbers won't work here. Impartial lawyers will tell you that huge numbers parroting the same incident cause is not sufficient proof. Why? Because for these claims of SUA to be believable, said SUA prone vehicles must be able to duplicate and repeat the SUA again, preferably witnessed by the owner, together with impartial and objective witnesses, relevant government agencies, experts and even the court itself. All it takes is for one SUA incident to be duplicated by one and the same "guilty" Montero. And that seems to be a problem of most of the Montero claimants. Try as they might, the SUA never seems to repeat itself under the same conditions. Wrong loading i.e. loading gasoline in a diesel Montero, will make the vehicle surge, but if claimants think they can fool an investigating panel, think twice as lab tests of the loaded fuel is quick and accurate. And it will also harm the engine. Court arbiters will have no choice but to find favor for the defense as there is no incontrovertible proof that some computer glitch caused the SUA and its not the triple bound floor mats or the driver's Crocs being 3 sizes too big.

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[car_fan]

With all the money and internal deadlines, a shortcut is a possibility. Considering a day of delay sa roll out ng new model can cause manufacturers millions.
as long as nadaanan yun process of testing, larga na. Plus human oversight and the test cases that one can think of can also be a source of imperfection.

[car_fan]

Same goes for the driver.