Brake Master leak

**dr. d** · January 21st, 2018 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by k_leos

Car zone said they don't individually bench bleed but do it when installed by tapping the brakes.

I want to know the technicalities.. Supposed you installed it empty and add brake fluid to the reservoir with air in the cylinders.. and you repeatedly press the brakes with the bleed valves in the brake calipers open (lahat ba na car meron bleed valve?).. can all the air be sucked out eventually or 100% required talaga ang bench bleed??

the air isn't sucked out in the traditional manual method.
the air is gradually pushed into and thru the brake lines, exiting out via the bleeder nipples, by the traditional "tapak.. bitaw.." process that every other tsikoteer worth his rear view mirror, has experienced.

brake bleeder nipple is opened, and mechanic shouts "tapak". the assistant (you! heh heh.) step on and floor the brake pedal, and the fluid from the brake master cylinder is pushed into the brake line. whatever air is in front of it, is pushed into the line.
"bitaw". the brake master cylinder spring pushes the piston back, allowing fluid from the reservoir above to fill up the cylinder.
"tapak". this new fluid is pushed into the brake line, further pushing the air downward.
the process goes on and on, until the mechanic sees that no more air, but brake fluid, exits from the bleeder nipple.
then he goes on to the next wheel and starts all over again, until all four wheels' brake slave cylinders are bled.
all thruout, someone keeps an eye on the reservoir, making sure it is topped up when the level gets low. if it gets too low and is emptied, air is re-introduced into the system, and the entire process must be repeated.

the entire process can be fast. 15-30 minutes.

filling the master with fluid on the bench, or when already bolted in place? it's a matter of choice, in my opinion.
but... if it is already full of fluid and some spill out onto the paintjob while bolting it in place...

btw,
you should do something about that ruined paint on your brake booster. baka kalawangin at ma-butas.

**k_leos** · January 21st, 2018 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by dr. d

the air isn't sucked out in the traditional manual method.
the air is gradually pushed into and thru the brake lines, exiting out via the bleeder nipples, by the traditional "tapak.. bitaw.." process that every other tsikoteer worth his rear view mirror, has experienced.

brake bleeder nipple is opened, and mechanic shouts "tapak". the assistant (you! heh heh.) step on and floor the brake pedal, and the fluid from the brake master cylinder is pushed into the brake line. whatever air is in front of it, is pushed into the line.
"bitaw". the brake master cylinder spring pushes the piston back, allowing fluid from the reservoir above to fill up the cylinder.
"tapak". this new fluid is pushed into the brake line, further pushing the air downward.
the process goes on and on, until the mechanic sees that no more air, but brake fluid, exits from the bleeder nipple.
then he goes on to the next wheel and starts all over again, until all four wheels' brake slave cylinders are bled.
all thruout, someone keeps an eye on the reservoir, making sure it is topped up when the level gets low. if it gets too low and is emptied, air is re-introduced into the system, and the entire process must be repeated.

the entire process can be fast. 15-30 minutes.

filling the master with fluid on the bench, or when already bolted in place? it's a matter of choice, in my opinion.
but... if it is already full of fluid and some spill out onto the paintjob while bolting it in place...

btw,
you should do something about that ruined paint on your brake booster. baka kalawangin at ma-butas.

Before the assistant bitaw the pedal.. dapat I-close yun bleed valve right? So it won't suck in the liquid it releases to the bottle? Kasi I'm reading some where they need to close the valve before releasing the brake.. pero parang some don't...

Here it needs to be closed:
How does a brake bleeder screw work?

"The bleeding process basically involves applying brake pressure, slightly loosening the screw - about 1/4 of a turn - to raise the end of the screw and allow air and fluid to flow into the hole at the bottom, through the screw and out the hole at the top. The screw is then tightened again and the brake lever released, drawing in more fluid from the reservoir and the process repeated until there is no more air left in the system. "

About Bench Bleed.. it is really very important:

see is bench bleeding necessary? - Honda-Tech - Honda Forum Discussion

"you don't have to bench bleed, but but there's alot of air which gets trapped in the MC if you don't bench bleed it 1st; plus you'll go through 2-3 bottles of brake fluid if you don't bench bleed it (without bench bleeding it will seem like no matter how much you bleed all 4 corners, they'll def be air with bubbles in your brake system & seem like it'll never **** pure fluid into the bottle). "

Tomorrow to whatever service center I visit. I want to make sure they did bench bleed and close the valve before every pedal release.. but is there variation where it doesn't need to be released?

I just had so bad experience the other day with service center where all the mechanic don't know how to flush steering fluid. He never did it since 2011.. doesn't know how daw.. and he is training about 5 apprentices in his shop.. wanna make sure I won't encounter one like him again...

**k_leos** · January 21st, 2018 12:26 PM

I called up different service centers kanina.. some use hose in the bleed valve/nipple.. while some don't use any hose and bottles (for example Car Zone)...

Tanong.. if walang hose and bottles and gusto ko matanggal old black brake fluid.. paano matanggal? ipa drop lang yun old fluid sa floor from bleed/valve/nipple? Won't it hit any metal parts and cause corrosive reaction?

Also the technique where one opens and closes the valve for every pedal press is called 2 man method.. the one where you don't open and close the valve is called one man method.. ano mas effective.. ano usually ginagawa nyo?

I want to see to it tama gawin bukas.. kasi in the case of my steering fluid replacement at the corner of 14th st and Gilmore the other day.. hindi magalaw steering wheel for 10 minutes.. nagulat nga yun mechanico sabi nya baka sira na pump.. at nagulat rin ako kasi cost ng pump ay 30k.. pero after 25 minutes gumalaw naman steering wheel after he tried all sorts of combination... want to make sure hindi ulit mangyari bukas.

Salamat sa mga advices nyo.

**falken** · January 21st, 2018 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by k_leos

I called up different service centers kanina.. some use hose in the bleed valve/nipple.. while some don't use any hose and bottles (for example Car Zone)...

Tanong.. if walang hose and bottles and gusto ko matanggal old black brake fluid.. paano matanggal? ipa drop lang yun old fluid sa floor from bleed/valve/nipple? Won't it hit any metal parts and cause corrosive reaction?

Also the technique where one opens and closes the valve for every pedal press is called 2 man method.. the one where you don't open and close the valve is called one man method.. ano mas effective.. ano usually ginagawa nyo?

I want to see to it tama gawin bukas.. kasi in the case of my steering fluid replacement at the corner of 14th st and Gilmore the other day.. hindi magalaw steering wheel for 10 minutes.. nagulat nga yun mechanico sabi nya baka sira na pump.. at nagulat rin ako kasi cost ng pump ay 30k.. pero after 25 minutes gumalaw naman steering wheel after he tried all sorts of combination... want to make sure hindi ulit mangyari bukas.

Salamat sa mga advices nyo.

I make it a point to have my car underwashed everytime I have any fluids changed.

Sent from my SM-T705 using Tsikot Forums mobile app

**k_leos** · January 21st, 2018 12:58 PM

Itong shop na ito. They don't know how to flush old black steering fluid. The technician head said he doesn't do it since started working in 2001. That's why black pa rin steering fluid ko now and have to flush it bukas. Before I got the car serviced.. i thought lahat na mechanico alam paano. Then i asked him how he bleeds brake fluid.. he said he just use basin at the floor when changing calipers. He said air will automaticaly go out when using. So bleeding is foreign concept to him and he blames pedal softness to the replacement brake master part used (because not original daw).

If you will pass by the street anytime and see the shop. Just drop by and ask if they can flush your black steering fluid. They will tell you they don't do that and don't know how.

So this experience makes me realize some mechanico doesn't know the basic like flushing old liquid.

That's why tomorrow i'll have to ask every process they will make in the bleeding of the break fluid after i find a service center with hose, bottles and knowledge to do this (car zone doesn't use hose, bottles because they don't have time to go to each wheel at details.. they just release the air at the bleed valve and if meron liquid.. close na.. so can't remove the microbubbles that can only happen when you use hose, bottles.. ) So all the tips you all shared will be useful as I make sure tama process gawin bukas. That's all I want. Really thanks a lot. About not paying 30% at Honda.. eh.. if one can save 5k.. why not diba.. they charge 1900 for brake master replacement plus about 5k for the surcharge of using parts bought outside casa.

**dr. d** · January 21st, 2018 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by k_leos

Itong shop na ito. They don't know how to flush old black steering fluid. The technician head said he doesn't do it since started working in 2001. That's why black pa rin steering fluid ko now and have to flush it bukas. Before I got the car serviced.. i thought lahat na mechanico alam paano. Then i asked him how he bleeds brake fluid.. he said he just use basin at the floor when changing calipers. He said air will automaticaly go out when using. So bleeding is foreign concept to him and he blames pedal softness to the replacement brake master part used (because not original daw).

If you will pass by the street anytime and see the shop. Just drop by and ask if they can flush your black steering fluid. They will tell you they don't do that and don't know how.

So this experience makes me realize some mechanico doesn't know the basic like flushing old liquid.

That's why tomorrow i'll have to ask every process they will make in the bleeding of the break fluid after i find a service center with hose, bottles and knowledge to do this (car zone doesn't use hose, bottles because they don't have time to go to each wheel at details.. they just release the air at the bleed valve and if meron liquid.. close na.. so can't remove the microbubbles that can only happen when you use hose, bottles.. ) So all the tips you all shared will be useful as I make sure tama process gawin bukas. That's all I want. Really thanks a lot. About not paying 30% at Honda.. eh.. if one can save 5k.. why not diba.. they charge 1900 for brake master replacement plus about 5k for the surcharge of using parts bought outside casa.

some mechanics get irritated, when a total stranger comes around and asks question after question. i'd get irritated, too, if this stranger even hints that what i am explaining out of the goodness of my heart, is incorrect. i mean, i am here in the shop, to make a living, not to teach.
TS might not be hearing what he wants to hear from the mechanic, but that does not mean the mechanic is doing it wrong. perhaps he is doing it right, but he just can not explain it well enough. but that's fine with me. i pay him for what his hands do.

videos of how to bleed brakes or power steering systems, are plentiful in the internet. i am sure these audio-visual presentations will prove to be more effective than my monologue here. i am sure TS can easily download a few of them, to view over and over again, until he "understands it right".

good luck, po.
i hope casa allows you to stand by as they service your vehicle. observing mechanics at work, is always an educational endeavor.

btw, be mindful of the pedal free play.

**k_leos** · January 21st, 2018 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by dr. d

some mechanics get irritated, when a total stranger comes around and asks question after question. i'd get irritated, too, if this stranger even hints that what i am explaining out of the goodness of my heart, is incorrect. i mean, i am here in the shop, to make a living, not to teach.
TS might not be hearing what he wants to hear from the mechanic, but that does not mean the mechanic is doing it wrong. perhaps he is doing it right, but he just can not explain it well enough. but that's fine with me. i pay him for what his hands do.

videos of how to bleed brakes or power steering systems, are plentiful in the internet. i am sure these audio-visual presentations will prove to be more effective than my monologue here. i am sure TS can easily download a few of them, to view over and over again, until he "understands it right".

good luck, po.
i hope casa allows you to stand by as they service your vehicle. observing mechanics at work, is always an educational endeavor.

btw, be mindful of the pedal free play.

Well.. the problem was I didn't ask enough questions. I mean.. I just entered the shop and told them to replace the steering system pressure hose as Honda told me the diameter was so small and I told them to replace the black steering fluid. I nearly left the car there but just stayed to watch. After replacing the pressure hose.. he was not sure how to flush the black fluid...

What he did was remove the pressure hose pressure switch sensor valve partially and let the steering fluid drain a bit while filing up the reservoir.. but after doing it for 2 minutes and closing the valve.. we can no longer turn the steering wheel with engine on. He thought sira na pump. Buti bumalik steering but with huge noise after 20 minutes. I didn't know what happened.. but after analyzing for days the mechanics of a rack and pinion.. kanina I realized what if he pumped so much air the rack and pinion no longer works because it's compressing air instead of hydraulic fluid?! Is this possible. i'm still analyzing what happened...

But i'll focus on the brake master first bukas. I'll buy a black paint and sandpaper and have the new service center sand paper the flaked off paint of the brake booster caused by the corrosive leaking brake fluid before doing the bench bleed and reconnection to the steering system.. someone suggested this early here.. tama to sandpaper it right.. hindi papasok debris sa loob ng booster?

After the brake master is successfully installed and bleed. I'll leave the car at Honda to flush the black steering fluid costing 3k (with chemical daw).. then continue analyzing what happened last week when the steering wheel stopped turning after he drained the pressure hose partially.. dapat sa return line mag drain. He also risked damaging my pump.

Maybe he is not really the head mechanic but just an apprentice whom I thought is the head mechanic.. just not to put the company at bad light.. they have few customer and kawawa naman to give them bad advertisement but need to share what they did for education and learning.

**Lew_Alcindor** · January 22nd, 2018 10:15 AM

brake still not fixed hahaha

my two cents. enroll in TESDA and fix your vehicle DIY.

**k_leos** · January 22nd, 2018 10:37 AM

I called up PowerTor. Talked to the technician and discussed with him how he would do it. So far, ok naman kasi they are willing to spend 2 hours to bleed using hose and bottles whereas in Car Zone in banawe.. they don't have time to use hose because sobra daw haba pila ng mga cars pagawa dun so hindi ma focus on detailed bleeding.

When I passed by Honda to buy brake fluid on way to PowerTor. Kinausap ko yun service adviser asking him on the minute details of the process. So far marunong naman mag bleed. And considering meron about 100 mechanico sa Honda.. then pinagawa ko na lang replacement sa Honda casa with 3,000 pesos surcharge for parts bought outside. Malayo rin PowerTor and my brakes may not last that long. At least I can complain to Honda management if hindi marunong mag bleed and make sure tama yun pedal play (which dr. d emphasized pero hindi ako familiar if not normal ang pedal play)

About yun service center who doesn't know how to flush steering fluid and doesn't focus on bleeding.. remember the mechanico there introduced air to my steering system by opening the drain at the pressure hose side and partially pa.. at least hindi nasira yun pump or rack and pinion.. kasi air in steering fluid can damage the pump. Since mukhang ok naman yun pump.. then I can forgive them for their mistake. I already removed the pictures of their shop at imageshack.. the photos in this thread will disappear in a while too.. if not.. then let's request the mods to just delete it (only me and dr. d posted the pics (when he replied)). It is only for reference for those immediately people here at present for our discussion and not for future reference for hundreds and thousands who are not present with us now. It is because of them that I realized some mechanico doesn't focus on hydraulics physics or principles (which is what the steering system and brake system rely on pa).

Thanks for all who help as it gives me the knowledge and make me understand the process a bit more giving me the information I needed to decide where to have it replaced with peace of mind for years to come...