Ford's POWERSHIFT Question

[erick_214]

[SIZE="4"]Elow Guyz...

I'm planning to buy a Ford Focus but I might just wait for the 2012 model. I have a couple of questions re the Focus' POWERSHIFT. Hope some of you guys can answer them.

1) I know it's better than the normal ATs'...pero ano yung advantages niya over the normal ATs'..?

2) May clutch lining at pressure plate ba ito?

3) May torque converter ba ito ng gaya sa normal ATs'?

4) Pag nag change ba ng ATF eh pag nagdrain eh drain ba lahat?

Marmaing salamat sa mga sasagot...[/SIZE]

[niky]

1. No torque converter to rob power at low rpms. Much, much, much faster shifts. Smoother operation. The "wet-clutch" isn't quite as fuel efficient as the dry-clutch variant, but it's more efficient than a regular AT.

2. You won't need to change them. The fully automated system means that the clutches will last a whole lot longer than a regular clutch.

3. Nope.

4. Have no idea about fluid change intervals. But DCTs don't use standard ATF.

[tidus1203]

Wala ding SHIFT SHOCK. Di mo mapapansin nag shift na yung car unless you look at the tachometer...

[the watcher]

Here's a comment on the Focus transmission from a Motor Trend comparison test of compact sedans. You may want to take this into account alongside early forum discussions about the smaller Fiesta's dual-clutch:

"Absent the extra stick, what would distract from a dual-clutch transmission dubbed "horrible" and "half-baked?"
"It's clunky at low speeds and rough when starting from a stop. To top it off, the shifts don't feel much faster than in any other auto in the group," noted Evans."

Best-Selling Compact Sedans - Comparison - Motor Trend

Best-Selling Compact Sedans - Comparison - Motor Trend

[niky]

Here's a comment on the Focus transmission from a Motor Trend comparison test of compact sedans. You may want to take this into account alongside early forum discussions about the smaller Fiesta's dual-clutch:

"Absent the extra stick, what would distract from a dual-clutch transmission dubbed "horrible" and "half-baked?"
"It's clunky at low speeds and rough when starting from a stop. To top it off, the shifts don't feel much faster than in any other auto in the group," noted Evans."

Best-Selling Compact Sedans - Comparison - Motor Trend

Best-Selling Compact Sedans - Comparison - Motor Trend

The US Focus is a gasoline model using the dry-clutch powershift. It's different from the wet-clutch system in the TDCi. If you're looking at a TDCi purchase, it's different. The TDCi is smoother from a stop than the dry-clutch Fiesta, because there's a lot of torque there and the ECU can juggle the throttle and clutch for a perfect start every time

And while the logic in shifting for the dry-clutch powershift may be hesitant, shifts are definitely smoother than with a traditional automatic.

Yes, you will not need to replace linings and pressure plates, because everything is automated. Automation makes the clutch last longer because the computer will not slip the clutch or "drop the clutch" at high revs like a human driver would.

[erick_214]

Hi Niky, thanks for your input...

So, ano ba mas maganda yung dry-type PS or yng wet-type PS?

Wow may mga variants pa pala ito...

Ano nga pala pinagkaiba ng dry and wet type?

[robin_micmac]

2. You won't need to change them. The fully automated system means that the clutches will last a whole lot longer than a regular clutch.

.

I just saw this thread about Powershift Gearbox now. I beg to disagree that you dont need to change the clutch on the Ford Dual Clutch Transmission. I've attended a seminar conducted by Getrag Ford transmissions at the Dunton Technical Centre in Es*** sometime last year and the Head Engineer of the project talked about the life of these clutches. Yes they intended it to be fit for service life i.e 100,000 miles or 10 years but I think they must have overlooked something on their design verification process and maybe encountered some problems in the field. They are now coming up with what they call as a ' clutch kit' which is basically the clutch assembly of the Dual Clutch Transmission system which will be available as a service part available from Ford in case you will need to replace your clutch pack.

Nothing against the Focus here or Ford in general but I think that the Dual Clutch transmission design is still in its early development stages. I have to say they are brilliant gearboxes, slick gearchanges and gives excellent fuel economy but they dont like driving on heavy traffic which coincidentally is what we have in Manila everyday.

You see, these Dual Clutch gearboxes are basically manual transmissions with automated clutch hence the Head Engineer of Getrag Ford Transmissions rather call it an 'Automatic Manual Transmission'. When you start crawling which is when the transmission engages first gear and fully engages the clutch, the speed is sometimes a bit to fast for the traffic and what you do is step on the brakes to slow it down. This is the bit that the DCT gearbox doesnt like because you allow the clutch to slip and at the same time you ask for it to transmit torque..doing this long enough will leave you with a worn out clutch pretty soon.

I have first hand experience of this as our family owns 2 Ford Focus TDCi Sport Powershift. One of them had a major issue in the transmission last year as it missed its shifting and even got stuck in one gear. You have to turn off the engine and restart it to make it shift again. Ford replaced the entire transmission under warranty. Now the other car had transmission is showing 'transmission malfunction' and the car is having 'clutch drag' when you drive it in traffic. It is scheduled to be inspected by the Ford Dealer next week. However, the car that had a gearbox change last year, had another 'transmission malfunction' and refused to select any gear and the car didnt moved. We had to restart the engine and then it worked again but the error message is still there. Now its got 'Clutch drag' as well.

Its fair to say that it maybe a one off when the tranny failed on the other car but now both cars are having problems. These cars were purchased last Feb 2009. So I guess I can say that there is something wrong with the gearbox design? Also, I have a colleague based in the UK who has a 2010 VW Golf with DSG Gearbox who also had a gearbox change under warranty. So it isnt just a Ford Issue after all. It seems like Dual Clutch Transmission or Dual Sequential Gearbox Technology isnt really perfected yet.

[niky]

I just saw this thread about Powershift Gearbox now. I beg to disagree that you dont need to change the clutch on the Ford Dual Clutch Transmission. I've attended a seminar conducted by Getrag Ford transmissions at the Dunton Technical Centre in Es*** sometime last year and the Head Engineer of the project talked about the life of these clutches. Yes they intended it to be fit for service life i.e 100,000 miles or 10 years but I think they must have overlooked something on their design verification process and maybe encountered some problems in the field. They are now coming up with what they call as a ' clutch kit' which is basically the clutch assembly of the Dual Clutch Transmission system which will be available as a service part available from Ford in case you will need to replace your clutch pack.

Nothing against the Focus here or Ford in general but I think that the Dual Clutch transmission design is still in its early development stages. I have to say they are brilliant gearboxes, slick gearchanges and gives excellent fuel economy but they dont like driving on heavy traffic which coincidentally is what we have in Manila everyday.

You see, these Dual Clutch gearboxes are basically manual transmissions with automated clutch hence the Head Engineer of Getrag Ford Transmissions rather call it an 'Automatic Manual Transmission'. When you start crawling which is when the transmission engages first gear and fully engages the clutch, the speed is sometimes a bit to fast for the traffic and what you do is step on the brakes to slow it down. This is the bit that the DCT gearbox doesnt like because you allow the clutch to slip and at the same time you ask for it to transmit torque..doing this long enough will leave you with a worn out clutch pretty soon.

I have first hand experience of this as our family owns 2 Ford Focus TDCi Sport Powershift. One of them had a major issue in the transmission last year as it missed its shifting and even got stuck in one gear. You have to turn off the engine and restart it to make it shift again. Ford replaced the entire transmission under warranty. Now the other car had transmission is showing 'transmission malfunction' and the car is having 'clutch drag' when you drive it in traffic. It is scheduled to be inspected by the Ford Dealer next week. However, the car that had a gearbox change last year, had another 'transmission malfunction' and refused to select any gear and the car didnt moved. We had to restart the engine and then it worked again but the error message is still there. Now its got 'Clutch drag' as well.

Its fair to say that it maybe a one off when the tranny failed on the other car but now both cars are having problems. These cars were purchased last Feb 2009. So I guess I can say that there is something wrong with the gearbox design? Also, I have a colleague based in the UK who has a 2010 VW Golf with DSG Gearbox who also had a gearbox change under warranty. So it isnt just a Ford Issue after all. It seems like Dual Clutch Transmission or Dual Sequential Gearbox Technology isnt really perfected yet.

Thanks for the info. ;)

Good thing if Ford starts offering clutch packs for the Fiesta. That was a major sticking point with the Honda Jazz/City CVTs... when those vehicles, whose only maintenance was supposed to be fluid changes, started eating up clutch packs, too.

Clutch packs are wear items on most automatics... the only difference with manual clutches being that they tend not to wear out quickly unless they're abused (brake-stall drag launches, heavy modification, hard driving). This is one reason why some of us don't like buying old ATs... once they start slipping, local dealerships and shops don't carry clutch pack replacements, and you'll have to take the whole thing apart and have the torque converter overhauled.

The clutch pack issues on the Focus puzzling... because the Focus's wet clutch should have less strain than a dry one... but perhaps the huge off-idle torque of the engine is a problem in stop-and-go traffic. I did notice that the newer test units seem to be programmed to accelerate softer from a stop. Perhaps it would be wise in the future to shift into neutral when braking to a stop. The point at which the clutch disengages from the transmission when braking is a bit too low (in road speed) for my taste. Perhaps shifting into neutral manually will save on wear-and-tear for that part.

If Ford releases the clutch packs and parts plus labor for the change are under 15k, then perhaps it's not such a big deal... at over 20k, people will likely start to complain. At least, though, they won't be as hard off as those owners who experienced CVT failures outside warranty and had to fork over 150k plus for a new tranny!

Any word if they will release a clutch pack set for the TDCi also? Not that we're affected, since my dad's unit is MT (which does have its own unique issue... the flywheel... but I have a source for replacements)... but it'd be nice to know. so I can relay word to the Ford Club.

[vivafoxpro]

My own take on this is that a major reason for a manual transmission controlled by a computer is it has the ability to "get smarter" as computer technology continues on its geometric progression. Same mechanical parts with an upgraded brain.

We already have GPS and proximity sensors. It won't be long before our daily rides learn to anticipate a full stop versus a slow down for a hump on the road.

When it comes to this, that DCT would attain its full potential without needing a thing changed.

On a side note, Google's driverless car got into an accident when it was driven manually by a man

[tidus1203]

My opinion is a computer makes a better job of preserving the clutch than a human... Although a computer could never match the "diskarte" of a human... They can get close but not match it...

But for me as long as may traffic, I will let the computer do the shifting!

[robin_micmac]

Thanks for the info. ;)


Any word if they will release a clutch pack set for the TDCi also? Not that we're affected, since my dad's unit is MT (which does have its own unique issue... the flywheel... but I have a source for replacements)... but it'd be nice to know. so I can relay word to the Ford Club.

I will have to ask my friend who is based at Dunton if this service part has already been released.
I'll let you know as soon as he gets back to me.

[robin_micmac]

Thanks for the info. ;)

Perhaps it would be wise in the future to shift into neutral when braking to a stop. The point at which the clutch disengages from the transmission when braking is a bit too low (in road speed) for my taste. Perhaps shifting into neutral manually will save on wear-and-tear for that part.

.

this will definitely help prolong the life of the clutches but unfortunately we cant expect every TDCI user to be doing this.

[robin_micmac]

Thanks for the info. ;)

Perhaps it would be wise in the future to shift into neutral when braking to a stop. The point at which the clutch disengages from the transmission when braking is a bit too low (in road speed) for my taste. Perhaps shifting into neutral manually will save on wear-and-tear for that part.

.

this will definitely help prolong the life of the clutches but unfortunately we cant expect every TDCI user to be doing this.

[htc8p]

[SIZE=4]Elow Guyz...

I'm planning to buy a Ford Focus but I might just wait for the 2012 model. I have a couple of questions re the Focus' POWERSHIFT. Hope some of you guys can answer them.

1) I know it's better than the normal ATs'...pero ano yung advantages niya over the normal ATs'..?

2) May clutch lining at pressure plate ba ito?

3) May torque converter ba ito ng gaya sa normal ATs'?

4) Pag nag change ba ng ATF eh pag nagdrain eh drain ba lahat?

Marmaing salamat sa mga sasagot...[/SIZE]

powershift is just a marketing term. bottom line dual clutch so mabilis ang shifting gears you dont feel the jerk/lag. but with the modern AT cars now like toyota dual vvti you also barely feel the shift too

also pag nag change ng ATF talagang dinedrain yan. i think usually every 50k

[erick_214]

Elow Guys...Thanks very much sa mga sumagot...Pero still have some follow questions:

*Niky: Sabi mo na yung automated system will make it last a lot longer, so does it mean na mayron siyan clutch lining at pressure plate?

*Tidus: Mukhang may fiesta ka, tanong ko lang kung sa anong RPM ba usually nagshi-shift up yung DSC ng Ford? Pwede bang baguhin yung shifting

points nito?

...Ano ba ang may mas magandang transmission system, yung sa Focus or yung sa Tucson? Kasi di ba sa Tucson eh AT rin siya? Similar lang ba silang

dalawa?

At isa pang tanong, pag ginamit ba yung manual ng DSC ng Ford pag nag shift up ba eh kailangang bumitaw sa throttle?

Thanks guys in advance...

[tidus1203]

Sa 1st gear it normally shifts at 2500RPM - 3000RPM. From 2nd all the way to 6th around 2000RPM is the shiftpoint. This is for typical city driving pedal pressure. Of course by stepping harder it will shift higher...

[erick_214]

Sa 1st gear it normally shifts at 2500RPM - 3000RPM. From 2nd all the way to 6th around 2000RPM is the shiftpoint. This is for typical city driving pedal pressure. Of course by stepping harder it will shift higher...

Hi tidus, thanks for the prompt reply...Possible bang magshift-up siya around 1,500RPM kung mas magaan yung apak sa throttle? Ano kadalasan mong ginagawa pag tipong econo drive ka?

Uu nga pala, pag nagshift ka sa P kusa ba siyang umaandar gaya ng sa normal na AT? yung parang nagccrawl?

Thanks ulet

[tidus1203]

Its very hard to make the FoFi shift that low kasi long geared ratio eh...

Pag econo drive ako accelerate moderately tapos as much as possible kung kaya gumamit ng momentum and let go of the gas pedal I do so... Anticipation na din of stops para let go of the gas tapos let the friction slow you down tapos the brakes when you get closer to finally stop the vehicle...

Yes just like an automatic when in D or L or R it will crawl...

[sandakot]

Hi tidus, thanks for the prompt reply...Possible bang magshift-up siya around 1,500RPM kung mas magaan yung apak sa throttle? Ano kadalasan mong ginagawa pag tipong econo drive ka?

Uu nga pala, pag nagshift ka sa P kusa ba siyang umaandar gaya ng sa normal na AT? yung parang nagccrawl?

Thanks ulet

we bought a focus tdci hatchback. and i love it. nung sinubukan ko papuntang baguio yung S(port) mode, never na ako nagdrive sa D mode ulit. why? parang manual lang eh. +/- lang tapos auto shift down siya pag bumagal ka (kairita minsan lalo na sa 2nd gear kasi biglang mag-engine break) anyways eto details kung kelan ka makakapag shift up. 1st to 2nd gear pwede ka mag shift kahit naka full stop (ganun talaga pag diesel diba?) then 2nd-3rd gear, approx. 1800rpm. tapos 3 to 4th gear 40kph, 5th gear >50kph, 6th gear >60kph. 100kph on 6th gear below 2000rpm. btw. may electronic delay siya since kahit papano AT parin. approximately .5sec delay once you pull to + before magshift yung gears. less hassle compared sa manual na may clutch. pero mas maganda parin siyempre pag manual.

[garic]

newbie question on the fiesta's AT: can you change from D to L while the car is on the move?