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  1. Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    #11
    i want lithe and agile...gimme an Exige by Lotus.... hey!!! that's british...;)

  2. Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    #12
    Im a fan of Skylines, with the technology it carries. But it's a fact that it's a huge, heavy lump of mass.
    true. and increasing the skyline's power does not immediately guarantee a good result, since you need to tweak the suspension. and very few have been able to tune the skyline perfectly.

    Note that due to the Japanese "Gentleman's Agreement", they state maximum horsepower as 276 hp.
    at least iirc as of june 06 it's officially gone.

    I read the history of the skyline. It stated that sometime before it was banned in international races because it was virtually unbeatable.
    when the r32 first raced sa JGTCC, it swept all but one iirc, thus prompting the rulemakers to handicap the skyline, to no avail. i think it was the same sa australia.

  3. Join Date
    Nov 2002
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    #13
    Americans believe that nothing replaces displacement. They want torque as much as power. They don't really care about revs, handling, sophisticated technology whatsoever. Sadly, only Ford has come to civilization by finally shelving their pushrod engines.

    Japanese cars, on the other hand, are more on the practical side, even when it comes to the most powerful ones. We haven't seen a mass-produced car having over 350 hp from them, have we? But that's not really the bad thing here. Rather, it's the fact that they save some of the best models for themselves, like the Skyline.

  4. Join Date
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    #14
    japanese likes maximizing their resources.... why need an old pushrod 5 or even 6 liters when you can produce the same power with say a 3L turbo or say, a smaller 4L V8?

  5. Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by squala View Post
    Americans believe that nothing replaces displacement. They want torque as much as power. They don't really care about revs, handling, sophisticated technology whatsoever. Sadly, only Ford has come to civilization by finally shelving their pushrod engines.

    Japanese cars, on the other hand, are more on the practical side, even when it comes to the most powerful ones. We haven't seen a mass-produced car having over 350 hp from them, have we? But that's not really the bad thing here. Rather, it's the fact that they save some of the best models for themselves, like the Skyline.
    Don't knock the Chevy 350 based engines just because it's pushrod, the Corvette version now has variable valve timing with the bigger displacement. The 500hp rating for the 7 liter is what the factory has done, but with a little tuning another 200-500 is easy without forced induction. Besides for the performance it gives: top speed 202mph, 0-100km/h in less than 4 seconds, 1/4 mile in the high 11's to low 12's, 1+ G cornering ability all for about $60-65K. The only cars that compare to it in performance cost a minimum of $100K.

    One other thing why GM hasn't shelved the pushrod engine is because it's a more compact design compared to a OHC engine. BTW they do have a OHC engine it's called the Northstar and has been in use since the late 80's.

  6. Join Date
    Nov 2005
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by basti08 View Post
    japanese likes maximizing their resources.... why need an old pushrod 5 or even 6 liters when you can produce the same power with say a 3L turbo or say, a smaller 4L V8?
    Have you ever driven and car with the so called old pushrod V8? You can't replicate that kind of torque on a 3L turbo six or a high strung 4L V8 when you step on the gas. You also can't compare the rumble of the pushrod V8 at idle to the sound any of those engine make. Don't get me wrong I like the modern engines as much as anyone, but hearing the rumble of the pushrod V8 brings back memories of sitting in my uncle's Chevelle or my dad's Buick as they rev the engine and shake the car and make the ground vibrate. Hmmm I can even smell the leaded fuel.....

  7. Join Date
    Jan 2006
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by basti08 View Post
    japanese likes maximizing their resources.... why need an old pushrod 5 or even 6 liters when you can produce the same power with say a 3L turbo or say, a smaller 4L V8?
    The "American" '07 Shelby GT500 has a 500hp Supercharged 5.4 liter DOHC V8. Price $40K, the upcoming "hi-tech" Nissan GT-R will be priced at around $70K. Muscle cars are in general more affordable.

    Another reason why they have big V8's? Tradition. The Mustang, GT500, Corvette, 300C, Charger, GTO etc all have a long history... a small turbocharged 6 is just out of place.

    A small displacement V8(4-liters) can be tuned to have the same power as the Corvette's 400hp 6.0 liter V8, probably at a very high rpm, but it wouldn't have that much torque, specially at low rpm.

    I've learned to love different type of cars... AWD turbo charged Japanese cars, agile european sports cars/ sports sedans, musclecars etc...


    Quote Originally Posted by redorange
    BTW they do have a OHC engine it's called the Northstar and has been in use since the late 80's.
    The Northstar V8 was 1st introduced in 1992.
    The updated 1993 Cadillac Allante with the 1st Northstar V8.

    One of the best looking Cadillacs of its time...
    Last edited by AG4; October 31st, 2006 at 03:10 AM.

  8. Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    #18
    it's also about the corporate parents' strategy. the big 3 US carmakers have not had to stray from their large-displacement strategy because they haven't had to. gas is relatively cheap in the US, the roads are big (so the cars can be too), and because of the speed-lmited, onramp/offramp environment of the country's highways, torque is more important than high speed performance or peak horsepower.

    it's simply been more cost-effective to stay with the pushrods. this is also the same reason US cars have long been maligned for their handling - on the cheaper models like the Camaro, Mustang and Firebird, they took their time before moving to fully independent suspension because of cost considerations.

    gas prices are ridiculous in Japan, which is why their automakers have to focus on efficiency.

    when the Americans really want to, they can produce some world-class performance automobiles whose technology can be compared against anyone, especially once you factor in the price. the best examples that i can think of have been mentioned already - the Vette Z06, the old and new generation Ford GT, and the Saleen S7.

  9. Join Date
    Aug 2004
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    #19
    ^^^Gospel. I was going to post the same thing.

    American manufacturers know how to make good cars. It's just that cheap gas and wide roads in the US have meant, for the longest time, that they haven't had to build cars to compete with the Japanese and Europeans, who needed cars built to be nimble to handle crowded Eurasian streets and narrow mountain passes. And small, efficient engines with good power, to cope with horrendous gas prices.

    -----

    RE: Z06 - should be 400hp, GT4 still mistakenly uses the earlier 375-385 hp motor (without/with oil change), when the Z06 of that year should have near 400 hp. It still kicks the butt of any Japanese sports car... simply because, even on the tightest course (Autumn Ring), the variances in top speed matter more than handling, and the Z06 can actually handle.

    RE: Gentleman's Agreement - most of the Japanese sports cars in the game were built under this, so it applies. The Skyline has "276" when you buy it, which miraculously becomes 330-340 when it's in your garage.

    RE: Gran Turismo 4 in general - It's not fair to judge cars by the game. Most Japanese cars listed are modelled on Japanese Market cars, which are built to different standards than US versions of the same car. Thus, they have a weight advantage in-the-game compared to US made autos.

    Plus, there are other discrepancies... like the 300 hp RX8 (production RX8s only had 250... before some smart asses found out it had less power on the dyno, and Mazda changed it to 235)...

    America's best sports cars, the SVT Cobra and the Corvette Z06, are consistently faster than the Japanese cars on most tracks. The only Japanese car that kills all (stock) is the NSX Concept car, with 500 hp, which can beat the Ford GT roundly. But then, it's a concept.

    Of course, this isn't to say I'm not a fan of Japanese cars... I still drive my Mazda Protege every day (in the game), and my favorite cars include the TommyKaira ZZII (500 hp, midmounted Skyline Engine, AWD) and the Mine's Skyline (600+++ hp, mad powerslides).

    But having tested all of the cars in the game, with extensive lap-timing and ghost-racing, that's the way it is... the Corvette and SVT Cobra R are among the best of the non-supers.

    ----

    And for those who lament pushrods? The Corvette ZR1 had a high tech DOHC engine tuned by Lotus... but it was too big (due to the head) to fit in the C5 Corvette and was damn expensive, and was finally surpassed by the Z06's pushrod motor, which has become a monster endurance racer due to its high rev limit, simplicity and durability.
    Last edited by niky; October 31st, 2006 at 01:11 PM.

    Ang pagbalik ng comeback...

  10. Join Date
    Nov 2002
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    1,630
    #20
    it's really about the race and physique...

    Americans = big, strong, brawny and wasteful

    Japanese = small, agile, ingenius and stingy

    Europeans = precise, neat, aristocratic and snobbish

    ...so they make cars that act and look like themselves...ano kaya sa pinoy? hehe
    Last edited by coiter; October 31st, 2006 at 02:29 PM.

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American muscle vs japanese ingenuity