Left turn when general green but arrow is off

[citizengeorge]

Hi,

I'm a European living and working here for 1 year now. In my country, our driving schools are very intensive (it takes 2 months of bi-weekly schooling with a total of about 30-40 hours of theory. Just learning rules and correct behavior etc.

So, since the Philippines is partaking in the Vienna Convention of international driving rules, I thought perhaps most of the basic rules would be the same.

Like. Green light means general green, meaning green in all directions (left/right/straight) unless a red arrow indicates otherwise.

I quote from Wikipedia:

When the arrow is not lit, turns in any directions are permitted on the main green light unless its prohibited by roadsigns.

With dedicated left turn signals, a left-pointing arrow turns green when traffic may turn left without opposing traffic and pedestrian conflict, and turns red or disappears otherwise. Such a signal is referred to as a "protected" signal if it has its own red phase; a "permissive" signal does not have such a feature.

However, MAPSA and taxi drivers tell me that the rules are different. Green main light and a green arrow box which is off, means that left turn is not allowed. This is of course absurd, because in other intersections, there are explicit red arrows, meaning, since the red arrows should be unnecessary, the MAPSA guy is wrong.

However, when I called MMDA and LTO, it seems that they have absolutely no idea about the traffic code.

In my country, there is a particular law "Law on driving rules" which is a set of about 150 rules. Here, it seems the rules must be compiled from dozen of different memorandums etc.

HELP? I'm considering to do a violation just so that I can take the ticket to court and ask the judge.. I have to make a left turn every day and I'm just sitting there every day with a green light having to wait for 2 minutes with a completely clear intersection...

ENGLISH ONLY PLEASE, THANKS!

[desert fox]

Welcome to the site bro, dont worry, we have so many drivers here who have more experience on day to day driving in Manila...they will give you more advice on what to do best...

[ghosthunter]

*citizengeorge

Unfortunately the truth is worst than you think.

Example, the driving/road rules also depend on which area of Metro Manila you are driving through. So certain rules which are fine in one part of the city is a traffic violation in another.

So in your case, it might help if you can identify the area and even street intersection you are having problems with.

But if you are driving with a car with international license plates (blue), you can get away with certain violations.

[av8or5]

Usually if there are 5 light stop light, top most is red, 2nd level: 1 yellow left arrow and beside it is yellow light,

than 3rd level: 1 green yellow arrow and beside it is green light.

Usually, those levels are syncronized to light up together.

Now for instance that the left arrows (green and yellow) dont light up, it means you can turn left but yield to incoming traffic., when clear then proceed to turn left with caution..

This might help:

http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/leftphas.htm

[_Qwerty_]

this is not the case here in makati, you can see this stoplight at the intersection of Arnaiz (Pasay Road) and Paseo De Roxas going to Greenbelt... it's a 4 light stoplight.. RED, YELLOW and 2 GREENS. One green going left and one green going straight.

If the Green going left is not lit, do not turn left as the vehicles on the other side is GO. There is also a MAPSA always waiting at Paseo de roxas..

[citizengeorge]

http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/leftphas.htm

If the Green going left is not lit, do not turn left as the vehicles on the other side is GO. There is also a MAPSA always waiting at Paseo de roxas..

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The most rational, and international, rules, perhaps even default national rules in the Philippines, is stating the left turn arrow is permissive. It is completely absurd that MAPSA can make a rule that goes against that.

Any idea where I can find that exact phrasing? That left turn on left off is an illegal turn?

Thanks!

[_Qwerty_]

not only illegal but dangerous as well as when the left green light is off, the opposite traffic coming from Dusit is Go.. so you cant really turn left..

[citizengeorge]

In Europe, you go into the intersection, and wait for the possibility of turning left without disturbing the opposing traffic. If that never happens, you wait until the light becomes red, you make the turn, empty the intersection, and then the other sides have a green. It's both easy and efficient, that's why I don't understand that they would make rules otherwise. The only benefit seems to be that Makati can penalize drivers for following commonsense and international rules so that they can make more money. Isn't traffic rules supposed to help traffic rather than generate income? Or am I being an idealist now?

[av8or5]

In Europe, you go into the intersection, and wait for the possibility of turning left without disturbing the opposing traffic. If that never happens, you wait until the light becomes red, you make the turn, empty the intersection, and then the other sides have a green. It's both easy and efficient, that's why I don't understand that they would make rules otherwise. The only benefit seems to be that Makati can penalize drivers for following commonsense and international rules so that they can make more money. Isn't traffic rules supposed to help traffic rather than generate income? Or am I being an idealist now?

As they say, "only in the Philippines".

[citizengeorge]

I would argue that since the Philippines has entered the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals, the following text applies:

http://www.unece.org/trans/conventn/signalse.pdf

Chapter 3, Article 23, 1a: this suggest that green light permits driving in all directions not otherwise limited by signage

Chapter 3, Article 23, 10a: this suggests that green light is permissive


Any arguments for/against?

What will happen if I protest the ticket?

[mazzipino]

That's the thing with the system here in the Philippines. Written law is different from applied law. I hear where you're coming from mate, but personally if I were in your shoes I wouldn't waste my time.

You can argue your case by all means, but don't expect it to be as civilized as it is over in Europe. Do you know the process of reclaiming your licence and paying the fine (or contesting it in court)?

My advice is to just take the rough with the smooth - meaning in other countries like the UK for example, there's a written theory test, a visual test and a strict practical test, all of which takes the average Joe a couple of months, and all of which has to be accomplished before they can get their hands on a licence. Here, well.... you could be a squatter off the street who's looking to be a tricycle driver, borrow around 2k from a relative and get a fake licence, all in a matter of minutes!! (Actually even the legit way of obtaining a licence only takes 1-2 days!!)

What I mean by taking the rough with the smooth is, just wait the 2-minutes at the intersection, it's not worth the hassle of dealing with Philippine authorities - especially since you're not from around here.

[citizengeorge]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the system, I know very well that things in Philippines work differently, and I don't except to be "accommodated" as if I was in Europe.

I'm just curious about how things work around here, because I want to help improve things, and I think having my own little courtroom drama would be a great story to tell my grandsons when I grow old... but I need some ammunition :-)

Have anyone tried to contest a ticket? Is it evaluated by a qualified judge, or is it just some quack from LTO who graduated 3rd class from law school? Is this what you mean by "applied law", e.g. unqualified judges that rules actually against the law?

[dr. d]

it's like this...
first of all, we here in the philippines drive on the "wrong" side of the road, compared to the british empire.
when all you have is a general green light, you may proceed straight. those who wish to turn left, should await the time when they are given the opportunity by oncoming traffic, that is, the opposing traffic slows down or empties out.
but if there is a dedicated left arrow light, then you have to wait for that arrow to turn green, for you to turn left.
in this country, you may turn right with impunity, unless there is a sign that specifically says "no right turn on red light". but if there is a right arrow light, then you have to wait for the arrow to turn green, for you to turn right..
lastly, the human traffic enforcer in the middle of the street, can override the electric lights with his hands. watch out for his hands if he's there!
and btw, flashing headlights here does not mean, "i see you, and i give you right of way". over here, flashing headlights means, "i'm going ahead! put on your brakes!". heh heh.

[CVT]

If the intersection has no provision(traffic light) for a left turn and there is no "no left turn sign", the international practice would be the unprotected left turn, i.e., you can turn left in the absence of the opposite traffic. The opportunity usually comes when the opposite traffic stops on their red light.

However, here in the Philippines that is not being practised. So, look for a U-turn down the road to be able make an equivalent driving maneuver.....

10.8K:lalala:

[CVT]

and btw, flashing headlights here does not mean, "i see you, and i give you right of way". over here, flashing headlights means, "i'm going ahead! put on your brakes!". heh heh.

I think that is the practice too in some Asian countries.....

That is, the headlights are the visual equivalent of a car horn,- "get out of the way"....

10.8K:lalala:

[MikroTechie]

Hi, I managed to contest a ticket for a left turn to Acacia street towards Ayala Alabang, but that is the help of my lawyer brother who wrote to the Muntinlupa traffic adjudication lawyer who agreed with our argument. However, they have since added a red left arrow to that intersection.
It's a hastle to go to that trouble but I believe each city has it's own traffic regulations and individual interpretation, not to mention, interpretation by each enforcer. It should be timely for LTO clarify this or for Congress to update the traffic laws defining the different situations to conform to international standards. I think a law applies to all but a regulation is specific to each locality.

[citizengeorge]

I'm glad to hear that it the appeal system actually works. I've read the 90-pages Makati Traffic Code, and it actually seems to conform with the Vienna Convention on Traffic Signals, which means that there is no mention that "left arrow which is off" is the same as a red arrow, on the contrary, it merely states that a left arrow which is on is permissive, and nothing else.

But Makati Traffic Code also states that drivers should give right of way (right hand vehicle and pedestrians) but so far I haven't seen any drivers being apprehended for that violation even when the traffic cop is just next to the violator who is even what I consider a reckless driver.

I heard someone, a Filipino politician I believe, say that Philippines actually already has an excellent law system. We don't need more laws. We need implementation.

[Bakero703]

Hi, I managed to contest a ticket for a left turn to Acacia street towards Ayala Alabang, but that is the help of my lawyer brother who wrote to the Muntinlupa traffic adjudication lawyer who agreed with our argument. However, they have since added a red left arrow to that intersection.
It's a hastle to go to that trouble but I believe each city has it's own traffic regulations and individual interpretation, not to mention, interpretation by each enforcer. It should be timely for LTO clarify this or for Congress to update the traffic laws defining the different situations to conform to international standards. I think a law applies to all but a regulation is specific to each locality.

Sir would you be so kind and post copy of the letter that you sent to contest this ticket? Here in Pasig the mayor installed brand new traffic lights this year, and we have the same problem; a green arrow but no red arrow to tell you that you cannot go. I'd like to send that letter to someone in city hall and see if they can put a red left turn signal to stop screwing with unsuspecting visitors of the City.

I admire what citizengeorge is doing, or planning to do. I’m sure if you do try to get a ticket and battle it out in the courts with this one ridiculous anomaly in our traffic system, it can set off a trend in correcting all other stupid traffic regulations that different cities try to impose.

It truly is commonsense; if you have a green light that gives you a go signal you should also have an orange light that warns you its about to stop and a red to tell you not to go. To me its obvious, with the omission of the red arrow signal, is a scheme to cash in on unsuspecting drivers. Since they installed the new traffic lights I see it all the time; someone is signaling left, traffic going straight has a green light no green no red left turn signal, oposit traffic clears, the person signaling left goes ahead and the three or four traffic enforcer manning the intersection looks as if they knew before it even happenes, stops the confused driver, ask for license, blah blah blah, traffic enforcer stands at the back of the car, then ticket, “please pick up your license at the city hall”, and your scratching your head, uh what happened to paying at the Metrobank, “sir, we have different regulations here in “insert city here””.

You can’t even pay off these city traffic enforcers anymore because they get a cut from the tickets that they issue. Good thing there is such a thing as Karma, the people scheming these injustices will get theirs if they’re not already getting it.

[_Qwerty_]

update on the Arnaiz (Pasay Road) - Paseo De Roxas intersection.. they've changed the stop light there already.. they now have 2 stoplights one for going left and one for going straight..

[mark_t]

I wonder what is the wisdom in having all these invented rules in the philippines on traffic?

Hay! There should be only one set of rules for planet earth when it comes
to vehicle traffic rules.

Soon these will be a problem for our OFWs, we will be viewed
as risks by other countries once we step on their territories.

A country sending out people with their own set of traffic rules.