should health care be free?

[smooth]

after replying to that other thread (again, my apologies to 6shooter), i began to wonder if health care, as a basic right, should be free. but here's the dilemma: how do we properly and equitably compensate those involved in the health care profession (eg doctors, nurses, midwives, and other personnel). if i'm not mistaken, health care is free in certain european countries but their income taxes are something like 50%. would this be acceptable to us? the problem is that with the way this government is run, raising the income tax to 50% might not translate to better health care programs, rather it ends up as better cars for the baguio city councilors.

so my point is this: how can we make health care more affordable (more reachable, more appropriate) in the philippine context?

and my agenda is simple: malay natin baka may tsikoteer dyan na may magandang idea kung paano mapapaganda ang health care natin na beneficial for all parties involved, na akma sa setting natin sa pinas. kung may consensus tayong madadatnan, baka maiparating pa natin ito sa kinauukulan. we might be actually sitting on the solution to the medical brain drain.

[uls]

after replying to that other thread (again, my apologies to 6shooter), i began to wonder if health care, as a basic right, should be free. but here's the dilemma: how do we properly and equitably compensate those involved in the health care profession (eg doctors, nurses, midwives, and other personnel). if i'm not mistaken, health care is free in certain european countries but their income taxes are something like 50%. would this be acceptable to us? the problem is that with the way this government is run, raising the income tax to 50% might not translate to better health care programs, rather it ends up as better cars for the baguio city councilors.

so my point is this: how can we make health care more affordable (more reachable, more appropriate) in the philippine context?

and my agenda is simple: malay natin baka may tsikoteer dyan na may magandang idea kung paano mapapaganda ang health care natin na beneficial for all parties involved, na akma sa setting natin sa pinas. kung may consensus tayong madadatnan, baka maiparating pa natin ito sa kinauukulan. we might be actually sitting on the solution to the medical brain drain.

Should healthcare be free? I guess everyone will answer yes.

Do we want more taxes? I guess everyone will answer no.

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I just read this New York Times article this morning re the soaring US healthcare cost. Doc Smooth, i think u will find this article interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/opinion/25sun1.html

This is significant to us coz our medical establishment (hospitals, doctors, pharma, procedures and protocols) is patterned after the US system.

That's why our healthcare cost is also rising fast.

[DonT]

There is no such thing as a free lunch. In the end, somebody has got to pay for it.

Free Healthcare service is what everybody wants. But can we afford it?

I think that bringing the cost of medicine down is a step in the right direction.

Once our economy gets stronger and corruption is minimized...everything else will follow.

[theveed]

reminds me of Sicko heheh.

[Altis6453]

There'll be no true free health care so long as we have tax leaks and corruption in government. What the public health centers can give so far are simple medications and vaccines. The availability of medical treatment for more complicated diseases is next to non-existent.

[uls]

Look at France's enviable system --- yun pala it is being funded with massive debt.

The French are spoiled rotten by the State. Now it has come to a point where it is no longer sustainable.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/68646/

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FREE is not sustainable. Money always has to come from somewhere.

Oil exporting countries can afford to provide a lot of free stuff to its citizens as long as oil keeps coming out of the ground.

[niky]

Free healthcare is a misnomer... nothing is free. We have to pay for it.

Part of the US problem is that people don't feel like paying taxes for healthcare for "freeloaders". Someone's always got to sacrifice to provide for those who can't afford more expensive management... and US health care is expensive.

Unfortunately, there are more people who cannot afford than who can, and those who need expensive car can't be covered by the system. "Free" or "subsidized" health care only works if enough of the population can pay their social security or medicare bills.

[XTO]

ideally, it should be free especially for those who are underprivileged. kaya lang, it will be impractical for the kind of corrupt government that we have. on the contrary, it is the most expensive form of protection of every citizen.

[uls]

If u only provide free healthcare to the underprivileged, then it's like a disincentive to those who are less underprivileged.

Baket libre sa kanila? dahil mahirap sila?

Baket hindi libre sakin? Kasi may trabaho ako?

I'll quit my job nalang para alagaan ako ng gobyerno.

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i guess this the the problem Niky was referring to.

A penniless Mexican crosses the border into the US, falls ill, and gets free medical treatment in an American hospital.

Whereas an American has to pay for medical treatment.

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I will not subsidize the poor.

Subsidizing the poor is like rewarding them for being poor and punishing me for being less poor.

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Reward people who take care of themselves. Give incentives to those who dont smoke, those who exercise and eat healthy and dont sleep around.

Why should the state take care of people who refuse to take care of themselves? They wana screw up their health, let them.

[XTO]

whoever wants to quit his job so that he can have medical benefits? Does anyone live on medical benefit alone? that's how a socialized structure for healthcare works, yung meron or kaya subsidized ang mga wala or di kaya. it works even for UP students, di ba?

[uls]

Oh yeah... UP... that govt subsidized educational institution... where lots of students come from middle and upper class families... who can very well afford to pay full price if they studied in other private universities.

Much like the 20% senior citizen discount card. Multi-millionaire seniors use their cards everywhere...

Whoever came up with that idea is stup....

Why should the state help seniors only? are seniors more in need of help than the rest of the population?

How about a poor 38 year old mother with 12 children? shouldnt she get a 20 percent discount pag bumili sya ng gamot sa mercury?

[XTO]

I think if you give incentive to mothers who bear more children than they can handle, then it is like telling the whole Philippines to multiply faster (which, btw, has one of the world's fastest population growth). Isn't population explosion one of the causes of our poverty? ang problema, masyado tayong takot sa relihiyon that's why we will live and die to this beliefs.

Our culture of corruption is so hopeless that we were born, are living and will die with it.

[spiff]

watch this.. imagine if hospitals tried to emulate this model.

[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=3cjnNPua7Ag"]YouTube - Aravind Eye Hospital[/ame]

[Altis6453]

Maybe its just not possible at this point. Come to think of it, free health care may even be more problematic than beneficial since one sector would ultimately bear the cost for those who can't. A good compromise is to make it socialized medical care in that the state should shoulder less cost for those who can pay more. Also, make it a staggered benefit so that those who practice responsible family planning are able to obtain greater benefits.

[creepy]

Describing healthcare as "free" could be misleading because healthcare is not free anywhere.

It is ultimately paid by someone, be it the government or a private entity (individual). What one has to remember is that a government-funded healthcare system is still paid for by individuals through their taxes. In the end, there will always be a trade-off.

[CVT]

i guess this the the problem Niky was referring to.

A penniless Mexican crosses the border into the US, falls ill, and gets free medical treatment in an American hospital.

Whereas an American has to pay for medical treatment.

One of the reasons why middle-aged Filipinos go to the US....

4606:rock:

[CVT]

Describing healthcare as "free" could be misleading because healthcare is not free anywhere.

It is ultimately paid by someone, be it the government or a private entity (individual). What one has to remember is that a government-funded healthcare system is still paid for by individuals through their taxes. In the end, there will always be a trade-off.

At least a guaranteed substantially-subsidized healthcare for those who have contributed their fair share during their productive years....

Kaso, dito sa atin,- to each his own. Problem is the government benefited from you during your productive years and you're discarded like a used rug when you need their help during your twilight years....

That is the sad reality.

4606:rock:

[Flagg]

....Reward people who take care of themselves. Give incentives to those who dont smoke, those who exercise and eat healthy and dont sleep around...

Oh no! This is discrimination! Specifically, discriminating against me! You mean I can't avail of these incentives?...

Sa bagay, I deserve it... :bwahaha:

[smooth]

thanks for all the replies. all the opinions posted were in fact very valid, and made very significant points.

but just to stay on topic here's the thing: is health care a citizen's right? we'll have to get over that idea first. because if it is a right, then the government has to provide it, whether via full or partial subsidy. (lets worry about where to get the money later on.) now, if it is not a right, then it must be a privilege, and hence, the government is not duty-bound to promote it as much.

personally, i believe that health care is a right basic right of a citizen. why? because each citizen has to be a functional contributor to a country's growth. how can a citizen adequately contribute to society if that person is sick? hence, as much as we pay our taxes (which is one of our many contributions to society), then society (or rather government) should try its best to ensure our health status so that we can contribute further.

what do you guys think?

[Flagg]

...but just to stay on topic here's the thing: is health care a citizen's right?

Basic health care, yes. Meaning, emergency cases... yes, including childbearing. Also, perhaps certain cases of congenital illness such as Down's syndrome. Pero care for chronic-type or age-related illness? Yeesh, do one's country a favor, claim uls' incentives.

...personally, i believe that health care is a right basic right of a citizen. why? because each citizen has to be a functional contributor to a country's growth. how can a citizen adequately contribute to society if that person is sick? hence, as much as we pay our taxes (which is one of our many contributions to society), then society (or rather government) should try its best to ensure our health status so that we can contribute further.

what do you guys think?

Yeah, me too... according to what I said above. IMHO, a government's sole reason for existence is its capability to provide infrastructure for the people it serves. These are of different types, such as legislative infrastructure, security infrastructure, etc.

The same for healthcare infrastructure. To make an analogy with security infrastructure, government provides a military and civilian police force. This does not mean one does not buy a doorlock. If one's house is robbed because of a door that is open, is the police to blame? :bwahaha:

If one gets a heart attack cuz one went out, ate sisig, had 12 beers to last longer going jiggy jiggy with a pretty young thang... who should pay? Hihihi...