to All Diesel Non-Believers

[truckesh]

1. Rudolf Diesel built his engine to improve mankind.
2. With no ignition system, the mechanical diesel engine will not interfere with radios, communication devices, or pacemakers.
3. Diesels are better in remote areas and third world countries because they can run on vegetable oil and are less complicated than other drivetrains.
4. The diesel BMW 520D luxury car beat the Toyota Prius economy car in fuel economy tests
5. India's Tata Energy Research Institute said clean diesel beats compressed natural gas (CNG) on cost and delivers the same amount of "toxic" pollutants.
6. The largest and most powerful internal combustion engine in the world is a diesel (Wartsilla-Sulzer RTAA96-C).
7. Only a diesel vehicle can tow, be a work truck, drag race, sled pull, off-road race, and still be a reliable daily driver.
8. Diesel fuel is 15 percent more energy dense than gasoline.
9. A diesel releases less carbon dioxide into the air because it is more fuel efficient.
10. Diesel fuel does not evaporate as easily as gasoline, so it is much safer in accidents.
11. A diesel produces maximum torque at low engine speed. This makes it perfect for getting heavy loads moving.
12. A diesel is more reliable because it does not have to deal with a spark ignition system.
13. An article written by the Health Effects Institute suggests older diesel engines produce safer emissions. Although older engines produce more emissions by mass, their particles are larger and less dangerous.
more & more reasons to rely on diesel power.

[niky]

Some points:

1. Rudolf Diesel built his engine to improve mankind.

True.

2. With no ignition system, the mechanical diesel engine will not interfere with radios, communication devices, or pacemakers.

So what does the alternator do? A modern gasoline car does not cause radio static or interfere with pacemakers unless you stick your pacemaker right between the ignition wires.

In fact, the recommended safe distance for a pacemaker from a gasoline engine is a minimum of 12". Not a problem unless you're a dealership mechanic.

3. Diesels are better in remote areas and third world countries because they can run on vegetable oil and are less complicated than other drivetrains.

True, to a point, depending on the diesel engine in question. Veggie oil rocks.

4. The diesel BMW 520D luxury car beat the Toyota Prius economy car in fuel economy tests

Fuel economy runs usually encompass long highway runs. Sitting still in traffic, a hybrid using 0 liters of fuel an hour to run the airconditioner is more efficient than a diesel using 1 liter of fuel an hour to do the same... well... until you drain the hybrid's batteries... we spent an hour sitting in traffic waiting to see how long it takes the aircon to drain the Prius's battery packs...

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]5. India's Tata Energy Research Institute said clean diesel beats compressed natural gas (CNG) on cost and delivers the same amount of "toxic" pollutants.

LPG pa rin... CNG sucks. :hysterical:

6. The largest and most powerful internal combustion engine in the world is a diesel (Wartsilla-Sulzer RTAA96-C).

And it turns at just a few hundred rpm an hour. automotive engines need to be more flexible...

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]7. Only a diesel vehicle can tow, be a work truck, drag race, sled pull, off-road race, and still be a reliable daily driver.

Now this is the one reason I'm replying... that's absolute bull. A gasoline pick-up can do all of these, as well, and still be reliable... and modifying a gasoline pickup for truck drags does not produce clouds of billowing black smoke.

8. Diesel fuel is 15 percent more energy dense than gasoline.

True.

9. A diesel releases less carbon dioxide into the air because it is more fuel efficient.

True.

10. Diesel fuel does not evaporate as easily as gasoline, so it is much safer in accidents.

Doubly True.

11. A diesel produces maximum torque at low engine speed. This makes it perfect for getting heavy loads moving.

Actually, electrics produce maximum torque at 0 rpms... making them perfect for towing... well... if anyone can solve the battery problem, that is. But the huge torque of modern diesels is not due to the diesel per se... but due to the fact that they are turbocharged.

12. A diesel is more reliable because it does not have to deal with a spark ignition system.

Tell that to a million blown diesel pumps... diesel injectors that are finicky to calibrate and sensitive to fuel... and modern direct injection injectors that cost an arm and a leg to replace. (and vehicles need these modern direct injection systems to meet new emissions standards, which gasoline engines can meet using low pressure injectors that last over twice as long)

The strength of a diesel is in the overbuilt bottom-end... they have to be built ultra-tough to withstand the high compression forces generated. But this also makes them more expensive to produce. A gasoline engine built to the same specifications and parts strengths will last longer due to the lower compression ratio required for gasoline. And the maintenance requirements of the spark and fuel system of the gasoline engine balances out, in the end, with the maintenance requirements of the diesel system... as long as the diesel is not CRDi, in which case, the maintenance requirements of the CRDi will always cost more.

13. An article written by the Health Effects Institute suggests older diesel engines produce safer emissions. Although older engines produce more emissions by mass, their particles are larger and less dangerous.

I guess we should go back to breathing coal dust, then?

-

I am a firm believer in diesel power, but let's "keef it real"

[actor21]

add ko lang

4. The diesel BMW 520D luxury car beat the Toyota Prius economy car in [COLOR=blue! important][COLOR=blue! important]fuel [COLOR=blue! important]economy[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]

tests

you can buy 2 Prius with a BMW 520d...
and you can buy 4 Ford Focus TDci as against to 1 BMW 520d
or 7 Hyundai Getz 1.5 CRDi against 1 BMW 520d
hehehehe..

[4JGtootsie]

Interesting thread!
Other fact about diesel fuel and engines.
Rodulf envisioned the engine to run on coal dust but eventually settled to oils.
Its true that fuel system components of diesel are expensive to buy as new but it doesnt hurt to rebuilt it. Electronic injectors and supply pump can be remanufactured and can even exceed OEM standards.
Smoke from diesel may look dirty but its less dangerous with that emissions from a fairly maintaned car.
Early years of diesel engines where limited to ships, Industrial, mining, locomotive, power generation similar to the Wartsila because fueling will require a compressor as large as a small car.
Thanks to Robert Bosch he invented a pump that can be fitted snuggly to a smaller engine for automotive use.
Sulfur in diesel helps in lubrication therefore Utra Low.......means

[duskylim]

[quote=niky;1321149]

Now this is the one reason I'm replying... that's absolute bull. A gasoline pick-up can do all of these, as well, and still be reliable... and modifying a gasoline pickup for truck drags does not produce clouds of billowing black smoke.

I suppose that's true if your idea of a high performance diesel is what rednecks in the US make. Never have I seen such a ridiculous approach to tuning.

Maybe they are so inbred they don't know any better.

Those people literally just dump in as much fuel as they can and raise the boost pressure well beyond safe limits. They even inject nitrous into the intake manifolds to try to burn all that fuel they sprayed in.

Intelligent diesel tuning (like that done by Gale Banks) doesn't involve blowing out lots of black soot.

"SMOKE IS STUPID!" - Gale Banks - check it out.

[niky]

Now this is the one reason I'm replying... that's absolute bull. A gasoline pick-up can do all of these, as well, and still be reliable... and modifying a gasoline pickup for truck drags does not produce clouds of billowing black smoke.

I suppose that's true if your idea of a high performance diesel is what rednecks in the US make. Never have I seen such a ridiculous approach to tuning.

Maybe they are so inbred they don't know any better.

Those people literally just dump in as much fuel as they can and raise the boost pressure well beyond safe limits. They even inject nitrous into the intake manifolds to try to burn all that fuel they sprayed in.

Intelligent diesel tuning (like that done by Gale Banks) doesn't involve blowing out lots of black soot.

"SMOKE IS STUPID!" - Gale Banks - check it out.

Well... the original post (work/tow/drag/etcetera) was written with those trucks in mind... thus the reply was aimed at said truckers.

[nitrox]

9. A diesel releases less carbon dioxide into the air because it is more fuel efficient.

I think this holds true for modern diesel engines. Plus I get more mileage for every liter of diesel fuel compared to petrol. As a previous Isuzu owner, our garage smells like smog each time the vehicle is started-up. Since we sold it and bought a car w/ CRDi , the smog smell has lessened significantly. I'm glad diesel engines now are more environment friendly than before. I had a hard time convincing my wife on buying another diesel-powered car as she associated diesel engines with soot and pollution. I'm glad the CRDi has proven her wrong. I just wish the govt will implement stricter emmision control guidelines to make our air safer to breathe. Go diesel!

[locoroco777]

just two things about diesel engines....

2 S's

Sound----no matter how you compare it to a gasoline fed engine even if its a CRDi still the gas engine wins in terms of lesser noise production

Smoke----Yes I know theres this Common rail direct injection thing that claims it emits lesser smoke than the old diesel engine design.....but how come I can still see some vehicles that has this technology installed already but still emits a lot of smoke even if its relatively new?....comparing it again to the gasoline engine wherein it will only emit smoke when the engine is already eating the engine oil or in our filipino terms "babain na ang makina" at "kumakain na ng langis"

Im not saying that I don't like diesel engines....because I do drive one...

I just stated some of its flaws.....but everything else about it compared to the gas engine? definitely I would still choose it anytime....torque, efficiency,price etc etc....

not unless we apply the Middle east pricing of OIL products here in our shores

[truckesh]

Some points:



True.



So what does the alternator do? A modern gasoline car does not cause radio static or interfere with pacemakers unless you stick your pacemaker right between the ignition wires.

In fact, the recommended safe distance for a pacemaker from a gasoline engine is a minimum of 12". Not a problem unless you're a dealership mechanic.



True, to a point, depending on the diesel engine in question. Veggie oil rocks.



Fuel economy runs usually encompass long highway runs. Sitting still in traffic, a hybrid using 0 liters of fuel an hour to run the airconditioner is more efficient than a diesel using 1 liter of fuel an hour to do the same... well... until you drain the hybrid's batteries... we spent an hour sitting in traffic waiting to see how long it takes the aircon to drain the Prius's battery packs...



LPG pa rin... CNG sucks. :hysterical:



And it turns at just a few hundred rpm an hour. automotive engines need to be more flexible...



Now this is the one reason I'm replying... that's absolute bull. A gasoline pick-up can do all of these, as well, and still be reliable... and modifying a gasoline pickup for truck drags does not produce clouds of billowing black smoke.
no doubt, petrol does, but the focal point here is FC & torque, say compare 6.4L diesel vs Petrol as workhorse?


True.



True.



Doubly True.



Actually, electrics produce maximum torque at 0 rpms... making them perfect for towing... well... if anyone can solve the battery problem, that is. But the huge torque of modern diesels is not due to the diesel per se... but due to the fact that they are turbocharged.
It is easier to turbocharge a diesel engine.
It is easier to supercharge a diesel engine.

Tell that to a million blown diesel pumps... diesel injectors that are finicky to calibrate and sensitive to fuel... and modern direct injection injectors that cost an arm and a leg to replace. (and vehicles need these modern direct injection systems to meet new emissions standards, which gasoline engines can meet using low pressure injectors that last over twice as long)

The strength of a diesel is in the overbuilt bottom-end... they have to be built ultra-tough to withstand the high compression forces generated. But this also makes them more expensive to produce. A gasoline engine built to the same specifications and parts strengths will last longer due to the lower compression ratio required for gasoline. And the maintenance requirements of the spark and fuel system of the gasoline engine balances out, in the end, with the maintenance requirements of the diesel system... as long as the diesel is not CRDi, in which case, the maintenance requirements of the CRDi will always cost more.



I guess we should go back to breathing coal dust, then?

-

I am a firm believer in diesel power, but let's "keep it real"

addtionally
The Army uses diesel fuel.
The Navy uses diesel fuel.
The Marines use diesel fuel.
The trucking industry uses diesel fuel.
The aviation industry uses diesel fuel.
The mining industry uses diesel fuel.
The railroad industry uses diesel fuel.
The maritime shipping industry uses diesel fuel.
The U.S. Coast Guard uses diesel fuel.
The construction industry uses diesel fuel.
Biodiesel has 34% more energy density than ethanol

The best batteries are 85% less energy dense than diesel fuel.

Diesel fuel is a lubricant. Gasoline is a solvent. What would you rather spray on your cylinder walls?

Diesel dominated at the 24 Hours of Le Mans.
If you're driving up a steep hill or carrying a heavy load, a diesel engine is less likely to stall.
Diesel engines are like garbage disposals-they'll eat any type of oil-based fuel.
It's easier to recycle a diesel engine compared with a gasoline-electric hybrid.
After a few decades, someone will pay you for your junk diesel engine.
Due to their complicated construction, people will have to pay to recycle their gasoline-electric hybrid.

[niky]

no doubt, petrol does, but the focal point here is FC & torque, say compare 6.4L diesel vs Petrol as workhorse?

If you give them the same torque and hp, the diesel will have a fuel consumption advantage, yes. But that's not what the item was claiming. It was claiming gasoline pickups could not serve the same purposes.

Let's note, here, that those drag racing diesels have fuel economy (in mpg) in the single digits in drag tune.

It is easier to turbocharge a diesel engine.
It is easier to supercharge a diesel engine.

Nope. A diesel engine is easier to apply turbocharging to only because the block and internals are already built for high compression. A gasoline engine built to the same specs will take more boost and make more power.

Part of the reason diesel engines are more expensive to build is because you need to build the internals very strong to withstand the high compression ratios (typically 18:1 to 22:1) compared to gasoline (typically 8:1 to 11:1).

I am a firm believer in diesel power, but let's "keef it real"

Don't mess with Ali G.
[img]http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQ1Nzk4OTUwNl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTY0MDcyMQ**._ V1._SX281_SY400_.jpg[/img]

And remember: "it" is short for "innit".

[FONT=Verdana]
addtionally
The Army uses diesel fuel.

Because they don't have to follow emissions regulations.

The Navy uses diesel fuel.

Neither do they.

The Marines use diesel fuel.

Neither do they.

The trucking industry uses diesel fuel.

Because it's more fuel efficient. But I didn't debate that point. And note... it's only now that truckers are being required to meet the stricter emissions requirements passenger cars are required to meet.

The aviation industry uses diesel fuel.

Similar is not the same. Avgas is not diesel.

The mining industry uses diesel fuel.

Emissions? Nope.

The railroad industry uses diesel fuel.

With the size of the engines and number of kilometers locomotives cover, they can justify the payback on the more expensive engines in the long run. Actually... diesel is a better fuel for large-installation engines, because it can be run at very low rpms.

The maritime shipping industry uses diesel fuel.

Ever do a cruise tour of the Philippines? Wonderful. The fresh sea breeze... surrounded completely by sea... and you'll never get lost. Just follow the tinge of diesel smoke in the sky down the shipping lane to the next port... :hysterical:

The U.S. Coast Guard uses diesel fuel.

Maybe I should have answered all the armed forces in one post? Note that the Coast Guard's small boats use gasoline engines.

The construction industry uses diesel fuel.

Same needs as railroads... low-rpms... large installations... no restrictions on size or weight of the engine.

Biodiesel has 34% more energy density than ethanol[/COLOR]

True.

The best batteries are 85% less energy dense than diesel fuel.

And true.

Diesel fuel is a lubricant. Gasoline is a solvent. What would you rather spray on your cylinder walls?

The one that won't mix with your engine oil and alter its lubricating properties, as biodiesel does? Gasoline causes less oil degradation in automotive engines since it doesn't mix with the engine oil... this is a real and worrying problem with the expensive long-chain synthetic oils needed to keep modern, tight-tolerance engines happy.

Diesel dominated at the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Yup. And all it took was some genius at Audi to realize that the rules covering diesel fuels, which were written before high pressure injectors became commonplace, allowed them to use engines that were 50% larger than gasoline engines, with larger air restrictor plates and variable geometry turbos... The rulebook for LeMans is antiquated, and Audi and Peugeot both exploited these loopholes. If the gasoline cars were allowed the same displacement and restrictors... even without the variable geometry turbos, they would dominate the diesels.

There are venues where diesel has been able to compete successfully with gasoline on a relatively level playing field... but since I'm playing devil's advocate, it's up to you to find out.

If you're driving up a steep hill or carrying a heavy load, a diesel engine is less likely to stall.

Depends. I've stalled diesels. It's not all that hard. Newer automotive diesels have a higher powerband than old diesels... and... guess what? They're easier to stall than the old trucks.

Diesel engines are like garbage disposals-they'll eat any type of oil-based fuel.

Depends. Old diesels that don't meet modern emissions standards in Europe (which is the leader in diesels) can eat anything. Modern, high-pressure diesel injection systems are only partially compatible with biofuels, and can't take straight vegetable oil unless the oil is filtered down to the 5 micron level... and even then, many modern diesels suffer oil degradation and valve wear when using biodiesel or straight veggie oil. And this isn't theoretical degradation, but actual, empirical data. Some straight veggie oil proponents in the US are warning their customers and fellow SVO users against some of these newer engines.

Oh... And they won't take bunker oil at all.

Gasoline engines are funny. With modern electronics systems, it's possible to run a spark-type engine on several different types of fuel... gasoline, e85, CNG, LPG and hydrogen. The only drawback is you can't fit tanks for all of these separate fuel types on one car.

It's easier to recycle a diesel engine compared with a gasoline-electric hybrid.

BS. The electric engine in a gas-electric hybrid possesses lots of rare earths that have high value... and this is assuming the gasoline engine is aluminum... if both the gas engine and the diesel are modern aluminum blocks (and the newest diesels coming from Europe are), then recyclability is the same.

After a few decades, someone will pay you for your junk diesel engine.

In a few decades, your junk diesel won't be road legal, anymore. I shudder to think what will happen when my Crosswind engine no longer meets emissions, but c'est la vie.

Due to their complicated construction, people will have to pay to recycle their gasoline-electric hybrid.

Complete hogwash. I don't have to pay anyone to recycle my electric motors. In fact... when I have a burned out electric motor, part of the cost of repair is paid for simply by the scrap value of the wiring. ;)

So... have you ever had a mechanic tell you that he's cutting 3,000 pesos off the cost of your diesel engine overhaul if you give him the old pistons? Didn't think so.

I love my diesel, and my next car might be a turbodiesel Focus. (I'm still thinking about it...) But you've got to come up with more convincing arguments to show diesel superiority.