Diesel Powered R10 wins again...vs petrol...is this new era?

[midinite]

From Manila Bulletin...

"Audi P10 TDI remains unbeaten

After its fourth race, the Audi R10 TDI remains unbeaten. The prototype which became the first diesel-powered sportscar to win the Le Mans 24 Hour race, added another victory in the sixth round of the American Le Mans Series in Portland, Oregon.

In the third race for the Audi R10 TDI in the US, Dindo Capello and Allan McNish triumphed ahead of their teammates Frank Biela and Emanuele Pirro to score the first double victory of the Audi R10 TDI.

The two Audi sportscars started the race from the second and third rows. After a late change of regulations in which the organizers allowed the strongest competitor in the Le Mans P1 class, the Dyson-Lola team, to reduce the weight of the car by 40 kilograms to 860kg, the Audi drivers Dindo Capello and Emanuele Pirro had to be content in qualifying with positions three and five respectively..."

Key to remember here is that it competes directly against petrol driven race cars and has now done it more than once...while it has problems...it still has won. Key isnt whether it is the first but that rather it seems like it is repeating the feat consistently...

It isn't a question of marque but rather that could diesel be a contender in traditional road racing?

[theveed]

But BMW won with a Diesel engine at 24 Hours Nürburgring more than half a decade before Audi entered the diesel foray...

[midinite]

But BMW won with a Diesel engine at 24 Hours Nürburgring more than half a decade before Audi entered the diesel foray...

I understand that...but i suggest you read the question...and understand the context of it

now the question is will this be a new era where diesel may be a legitimate contender if not a consistent victor in traditional road racing...notice how i didnt even put the car brand in the subject?

...please stick to the topic

(because from the sound of it you are comparing one marque vs another when the question was about diesel and its rediscovered role in racing)...I used "rediscovered" since you mentioned it was not the first time right?

[niky]

Ahem... skipping the usual Audi-BMW wars (by the way, a privateer run 1-series diesel just finished pretty high in the 24 hours at the Nurb)...

It's a good start. Of course, it has the advantage of being an Audi, and like I said, being the successor to the legendary R8, it's expected to win its class.

What's nice, though, is that despite the handicapping system in place in this series, they're still winning. I can see a lot of teams jumping on the diesel wagon after this.

[midinite]

Ahem... skipping the usual Audi-BMW wars (by the way, a privateer run 1-series diesel just finished pretty high in the 24 hours at the Nurb)...

It's a good start. Of course, it has the advantage of being an Audi, and like I said, being the successor to the legendary R8, it's expected to win its class.

What's nice, though, is that despite the handicapping system in place in this series, they're still winning. I can see a lot of teams jumping on the diesel wagon after this.

Ahem...glad to see you could see past the marques...even with the snide aside.

why would it be expected to win if it runs on a different engine? it would be expected to win if it were the same R8 improved (note how i failed to mention the marque again)

can you please elaborate on the handicapping system?

and thank you for staying on topic

[niky]

Snide aside? Actually, it's just an observation... I watched a replay of the 24 Hour Nurb race the other night... Awesome stuff. Too bad all the LMPs are racing elsewhere... would've made it perfect.

Yes, it should be expected to win. Audi's LeMans Prototypes have been the class of the field over the past decade, and the R8 will go down in history as one of the best LMP cars ever. It's like the Corvette in the 24 hours of Le Mans... you expect it to win (the Corvette's class dominance is something people fail to notice). Of course, nothing's forever, just look at McLaren now, or how Ferrari bungled up their previous car (there are some indications that tires were only part of that problem).

As with the engine, the direct injection gasoline engines have been very reliable for the R8, and the only surprise with the R10 diesel is how reliable it's been under race conditions. That was the real gamble, and now it's paid off.

RE: handicapping. I'm not familiar with the current series and exact rules, but usually, cars that win successive races get a weight penalty. In this case, they're giving a weight reduction bonus to cars behind the leader. It's interesting to note that the Audi is still the class of the field despite this... but that's often the case when you've got the best chassis and (in this case) the best engine.

Of note, re: the Corvette again... it's still doing spectacularly, despite the amount of bonuses they're giving the Aston Martins. Sad, really, I want to see those ***y Astons on top...

In closing: handicapping is done to ensure close and exciting racing, and to keep one manufacturer from running away with the championship, as you can so often see in F1 or the WRC. And it's better than NASCAR's version, wherein everyone is restricted to using the same engine, chassis, suspension, etcetera...as this invariably leads to technology being held over from the stone age (NASCAR uses huge OHV engines, beam axle suspensions and a crude chassis... a Dodge Viper is faster than a NASCAR car, for christ'sakes).

And despite this, the R10 still wins. When you have no power/weight ratio advantage anymore and still win, that's good chassis/aerodynamic work.

With the win at the first 24-hours and the 12-hours of Sebring, people were still holding their breath to see if the diesels were the new thing in endurance prototype racing (because, as has been said before, smaller diesels have proven themselves in endurance racing). Now with successive wins in the American series, there's no denying it, diesel is definitely here.

It will be interesting to see how many teams will be able to field a good diesel in the next 24 hours of LeMans.

But for the rest of motor racing? restrictions in F1 and the WRC still make diesels uncompetitive, but I'm hoping smaller series, like the DTM and BTCC, will bend the rules a little to let diesels in.

Now, if the Volkswagen Automotive Group (the parent group of Audi) really want to run with this, they'll produce a diesel supercar. Audi's upcoming version of the Gallardo would be perfect for this.

[midinite]

Yes, it should be expected to win. Audi's LeMans Prototypes have been the class of the field over the past decade, and the R8 will go down in history as one of the best LMP cars ever. It's like the Corvette in the 24 hours of Le Mans... you expect it to win (the Corvette's class dominance is something people fail to notice). Of course, nothing's forever, just look at McLaren now, or how Ferrari bungled up their previous car (there are some indications that tires were only part of that problem).

As with the engine, the direct injection gasoline engines have been very reliable for the R8, and the only surprise with the R10 diesel is how reliable it's been under race conditions. That was the real gamble, and now it's paid off.


It will be interesting to see how many teams will be able to field a good diesel in the next 24 hours of LeMans.

But for the rest of motor racing? restrictions in F1 and the WRC still make diesels uncompetitive, but I'm hoping smaller series, like the DTM and BTCC, will bend the rules a little to let diesels in.

Then if you say it was a real gamble...how could it be expected? A gamble cannot be definite or a certainty or so i am led to believe.

who will also field diesel...am not familiar with diesel as modern cars are not my thing but TDI has been worked to death they (not me) said since 1989 with the sole purpose of making it a performer. So who else kaya has a viable diesel (BMW some say here) for prototype racing.

[niky]

Despite BMW's racing prowess with diesels, they don't currently have a big diesel for racing. Nor is BMW active in the LMP class anymore, as the main contenders are Lola, Porsche and Audi. They may be interested in supplying an engine to a chassis constructor, though... but I doubt it. Everyone else will probably be building from scratch.

RE: gamble-expected. The gamble was whether this totally new engine would survive. Thus, if the car didn't break down, it was expected to win.

[midinite]

Despite BMW's racing prowess with diesels, they don't currently have a big diesel for racing. Nor is BMW active in the LMP class anymore, as the main contenders are Lola, Porsche and Audi. They may be interested in supplying an engine to a chassis constructor, though... but I doubt it. Everyone else will probably be building from scratch.

RE: gamble-expected. The gamble was whether this totally new engine would survive. Thus, if the car didn't break down, it was expected to win.

okay...why get into a semantic battle since that is beside the point anyway...it only went to show that you implied and i stress implied that the diesel win was moot since it was a shoe in...and that it was on a superior body and chassis...when the topic was whether diesel will start to make its mark in the scene... and that it was conveniently forgotten that the second in the French Le Mans was almost a lap behind...or around the entire length of a whole F1 race...not course...race.


regarding BMW, it was mentioned time and time again that they won in 1998 in an endurance race...how many times was that accomplished? was it a consistent victory or a one off...because logic dictates that for the technology to be viable is for it to keep winning or have enough wins in its belt...diba vtec got all that hype sa F1?

honestly, it is not marque specific but whether diesel has re-emerged as a racing power in this context.

[midinite]

Again, I couldnt care less which marque is winning what...or it wouldnt matter to me if the winning diesel technology right now was with Kia...I am just wondering if this maverick approach will make a change..

and isnt challenging convention and making a change for the better what it is all about?

[niky]

RE:BMW diesels: Their one other high-profile use of diesel is in the Paris-Dakar (as mentioned ad nauseum in the previous thread).

Currently, though, BMW is selling diesel racing cars to interested private owners and racing teams. The BMW 120d running in the current 24 Hours of the Nurb is a privateer. So while they're not getting the grandiose amount of press Audi is getting, they're actually contributing to the dissemination of diesel entrants into various arenas of motorsports.

Of course Audi is at the ***y end of the diesel spectrum, campaigning a diesel powered car in the LMP class... but it's interesting to note:

The R10 diesel, due to regulations, is competitive in the ALMS series because of its overwhelming torque advantage. That's common knowledge about diesels... what isn't commonly noted is the fact that regulations favor the R10.

How?

The R10's diesel lump is twice the size of other LeMans prototype turbo engines. At 5.5 liters, as opposed to the 3.6 liters* of its opponents, it is able to produce the same horsepower but is relatively less stressed than the high revving gas units. It also has variable nozzle turbos, which are banned on the gasoline entries, and is allowed to use larger air restrictors (meaning, it gets more air) and run nearly twice as much boost.

*fun fact: while all LeMans Prototypes are running at around 650hp, the 3.6 gas engines can do 1000hp unrestricted.

Of course, since diesels are inherently less powerful than gasoline engines at the same displacement, these rules are somewhat fair from a power standpoint, as it gives the R10 diesel roughly the same power as gasoline engines. But they show how much the rule-making bodies underestimated the power of modern diesels, and the effect of the massive torque-advantage these rules give the R10.

Expect some tweaking next year to handicap the diesels a little.

Of course, the same can be said of the touring class rules that cover the BMW diesel cars... but I expect they'll change the rules as diesels become more common.

The R10's win is historic, in that it shows how far diesels have come, and how much we underestimate them. Is it better than gasoline engines? Yes, but only under the current rules. What's ironic, is that they can't induce rule changes regarding displacement and air restrictors for the diesel car mid-season for the ALMS, so they're relying on weight changing. The R10 team is crying foul, but it's rumored the weight regulation was actually increased to accomodate the R10 in the first place.

Thus... the R10's win is historic as the first outright diesel win in LeMans. Period. It doesn't mark the first time that a diesel car has won an international endurance race, and it still doesn't mark the point at which diesels have achieved power parity with gas engines. With current developments, though, that point is hopefully not far off.

That's why I said, previously, that you won't see diesels in F1 or the WRC, because of the strict engine displacement and aspiration regulations. At least, you won't see them yet. Who knows what the future will bring?

My whole point is this: It's great that the R10 is winning, but it's not as amazing an accomplishment as the glowing press releases make it seem.

You're right about one thing, the R10 does challenge convention. And while the diesel revolution in modern road-cars started long before the the R10, it is the ambassador for diesel to the Americas, and will hopefully increase acceptance in the US of all things diesel.

[empy]

uy, nabuhay nanaman tong topic ah

i tend to agree with niky on a few points: (a) Audi owns ALMS whatever powerplant they put in that chassis-of-domination they call the R series, (b) whether diesel engines, regardless of marque, will win consistently in racing depends completely on the rules since there are inherent advantages and disadvantages to diesel that either favor it or kill it, and (c) any win for the R10 is a win for diesel tech because it's opening eyes and destroying commonly-held misconceptions about diesel here in the states.

[midinite]

RE:BMW diesels: Their one other high-profile use of diesel is in the Paris-Dakar (as mentioned ad nauseum in the previous thread).

My whole point is this: It's great that the R10 is winning, but it's not as amazing an accomplishment as the glowing press releases make it seem.

a few questions:

1. Is BMW the only one using diesel in the Paris-Dakar thing? If not why the focus on one marque in your response?

2. Is using Paris-Dakar comparing apples to oranges - not the same playing field? like even comparing to F1, WRC, etc?

3. Given the statement in bold I suppose that the press is not as objective? By releasing articles like that? Have they been bought?

[theveed]

All the marquee discussion creeped in when you posted the original subject as AUDI R10... along with another Audi vs BMW/Benz thread at the same time. I, for one, didn't notice that you changed your original post (as indicated on the post itself), hence the emergence of comparison.

[midinite]

All the marquee discussion creeped in when you posted the original subject as AUDI R10... along with another Audi vs BMW/Benz thread at the same time. I, for one, didn't notice that you changed your original post (as indicated on the post itself), hence the emergence of comparison.

Wouldn't it help if the question was answered "Diesel Powered R10 wins again...vs petrol...is this new era?"...Okay...so where is the word Audi there? R10 is used to identify but the key was to talk about diesel power...Also would you rather I censor or delete the word Audi from the Manila Bulletin article? Am just asking where this is a turning point or tipping point for diesel? Racing? would be good to address this topic than veer away from it...

[niky]

RE: BMW in Paris Dakar - because that's the one I know of, and they've been the most successful. Before BMW entered the X5 turbodiesel in the Paris-Dakar, most of the diesel class was old-fashioned trucks. BMW was the first to field a diesel car that could truly dice with the front runners. And this was with a brand new racing program and vehicle.

In fact, if Mitsubishi weren't so damn good at Paris Dakar rallies, BMW might have had a chance to win. They've only ever placed third or fourth.

EDIT: VW started fielding Touaregs in the Paris Dakar this year, after relying on bespoke buggies... and they managed to clinch second overall. VW's grassroots racing series started using diesel Golf vans almost a decade ago.

Also of note, Alfa Romeo is going to field diesel touring cars, but since that hasn't happened yet, I didn't mention it.

And, re: the relevance of the thread... you asked the exact same question a loooong time ago with the Sebring win, then with the LeMans win, then... etcetera etcetera...

It's nice that the R10 is winning, but do we have to keep discussing whether it's revolutionary or not every single time it wins?

-----

Okay, back to the questions:

The Paris Dakar is about as relevant as WRC is to road car development, and just a little more relevant than LeMansPrototye racing. Meaning to say, while Paris Dakar entrants are based on road cars, they're very highly modified, and are often silhouette racers. The Mitsubishi Pajero that keeps winning, for example, looks nothing like the actual thing.

To whit: Note that in the WRC, only Mitsubishi and Subaru have cars that are even remotely like their rally cars. It's only in the Junior WRC that you see cars that are more like their road-going counterparts.

With LeMansPrototypes, however, the cars are nothing like any road-going cars, and they don't even have to resemble them. Even when they had homologation rules, they were meaningless. How many Nissan R390 road cars has anyone ever seen on the road? Bentley has no sportscars, only luxury GTs, yet they're in the LMP class. The LMP class is better than F1, though, which is even more remotely removed from roadcar development than anyone else. F1 bans turbos, rotaries, adaptive suspension... everything. BMW's suggestions that the M5 evolved from their F1 program? Patently ridiculous.

What's more interesting is the GT class beneath them, as this includes cars that are modified versions of their road-going brethren. This includes Corvettes, Aston Martins, Porsches and Ferraris, and is fiercely fought. This class has a definite effect on road car development.

As to whether Paris Dakar vs LeMans is apples to oranges... they're both endurance races, and they both cover a lot of ground. The difference is, the Paris Dakar has rest stops, while LeMans has the luxury of smooth ground and no impediments like killer sand dunes, sandstorms, rocks, ruts, heaves, bumps, clogged air filters, broken suspensions and the like.

The top class of the Paris Dakar may be only remotely connected to roadcar development, but the motorbike classes are interesting, as a lot of innovation and development here directly translates to road-going bikes.

------

The press hasn't been bought, it's just that most of them don't look closely at the rulebooks or technical specs. The Audi Team is grinding the gears of their PR machine very hard with the R10, but it's helped by the uniqueness of the car itself, being the sole diesel entrant in the field.

Honestly, which is more impressive sounding:

"R10 beats all despite being diesel"

or

"R10, with biggest engine and most powerful turbos, beats all"

And note, both are true. But the first one is more impressive, thus, it's the line the press uses. It's a minority of afficionados and cognosceti who actually pay attention to the second fact.

[JagXtrm]

:popcorn:

[midinite]

:popcorn:

pass the popcorn please...this is very interesting

[Bogeyman]

And, re: the relevance of the thread... you asked the exact same question a loooong time ago with the Sebring win, then with the LeMans win, then... etcetera etcetera...

It's nice that the R10 is winning, but do we have to keep discussing whether it's revolutionary or not every single time it wins?

Spot on.

midinite, it certainly is welcome and thrilling to hear diesel winning against petrol-powered contenders from time to time. But to belabor the fact at every possible instance -- really. I don't suppose such news are meant to make me feel smug driving an oil burner, because I didn't exactly have supersonic speeds in mind the day I decided to get a diesel.

It isn't a question of marque but rather that could diesel be a contender in traditional road racing?

Maybe, and maybe not. If it does make it, well and good. If it doesn't, then try again. Either way, I guess it's safe to say that diesel will always be appreciated, race or no race -- and I don't mean just Audi.

[niky]

What about my oil burner? A whole 75hp for a two ton truck? Still, it's one of the best engines I've ever had, bar none, and I am considering buying another diesel in the near future.