help. regrets after upgrading the stock speakers

[Carlo Castillo]

Sirs just want to ask for your advice on this matter. We have a 2008 honda civic fd. The stock sound system is pretty good and I love the way it produces the bass. The right front speaker eventually gave out and I DIY'd it. I had it re-winded and it sounded the way it was before. After about half a year the same speaker gave out again. A friend of mine advised me to consider upgrading the front speakers to a "separates". So I had them replaced with firland audio separates. Im not exactly sure about the model number. Anyway after the upgrade I noticed that the sound bass that the stock speaker produced was not there anymore, After the upgrade halos wala na ako maramdaman na bass puro treble nalang, kahit pa i negative ko na yung treble at i lakas ko yung volume very minimal nalang yung bass. So it turned out the way i hear it that mas maganda pa yung dating stock speakers sa separates. My question mga sirs it may remedyo o paraan po ba na lumakas kahit konti yung bass without installing a subwoofer. Ayaw ko po kasi ng may subwoofer box sa trunk. May paraan po ba na "matimpla" yung separates ko para lumakas nman yung bass. Napansin ko nga din po pla that after the upgrade eh hindi ko na marinig halos yung stock speakers sa likod. Please po bigyan nyo ako ng advice at parang nagsisisi yta ako dun sa 5k na binayad ko sa upgrade. thank you and more power sa tsikot.com

[ParticleX]

Most separates need a larger input power than your stock stereo can handle - meaning an amplifier is almost always needed (AFAIK). Meron ako nung Targa seps, nung hinihintay ko pa yung amplifier ko eh dinerekta ko muna sa head unit, gumagana naman kaso sobrang hina. Nung ni-wire ko na sa amplifier dun na gumanda at lumakas yung tunog nya.

So probably your separates are not receiving enough power. Either balik ka sa stock speakers or bili ka amplifier. Suggest ko amp route para in case you want to upgrade madali na lang.

Not really an audio guru pero dumaan kasi ako dito

[oj88]

The stock HU, by way of a factory-set DSP setting, is matched to the stock speakers.

You can temporarily disable the DSP using the following procedure:
1. On the stock HU, press and hold buttons 4 and 6 then power on
2. Release all buttons and press 4 once (you'll see on the display that it says DSP flat)
3. Power off then on again and you'll hear a bit more bass

Note: The system will reset to factory DSP when you turn the key off. You will have to do the steps above every time you turn on the radio for the first time after turning the key.

The purpose of the factory DSP is to protect the stock speakers from excessive bass. If you still have stock speakers at the back, be mindful of your volume setting. As a work around, you can adjust the fader to give more front bias.

[markygy]

Follow what sir oj88 mentioned. Turn off the factory DSP and let the passive filters from your seps do the filtering.

If those are brand new set of speakers, just be more patient until those speakers break-in.

One more thing to improve the mid-bass response on those speakers. If you didn't install a spacer, use one. The spacer will re-enforce on how your speaker is mounted and if budget permits deaden the door.

[jaypee10]

kaya hindi mo gaano marinig ung sa likod eh lumutang ung tunog mo sa front.
baka naman baliktad lang ung kabit ng wire sa speaker kaya ayw bumigay ng magnda ung tunog.minsan kasi kahit na sundin mo ung polarilty ng speaker eh sumasablay din kung minsan,kaunting timpla lang yan sa setting ng HU mo fader.at balance..

[Carlo Castillo]

Most separates need a larger input power than your stock stereo can handle - meaning an amplifier is almost always needed (AFAIK). Meron ako nung Targa seps, nung hinihintay ko pa yung amplifier ko eh dinerekta ko muna sa head unit, gumagana naman kaso sobrang hina. Nung ni-wire ko na sa amplifier dun na gumanda at lumakas yung tunog nya.

So probably your separates are not receiving enough power. Either balik ka sa stock speakers or bili ka amplifier. Suggest ko amp route para in case you want to upgrade madali na lang.

Not really an audio guru pero dumaan kasi ako dito

If I indeed need an amplifier, what type or brand yung pinaka affordable and at the same time yung hindi makakasakop ng space. Kasi po ayaw ko sana talaga na may mabago dun sa kotse. Meaning yung pinaka hindi "invasive" na set up. Furthermore, kung talaga po na kailangan ko mag amplifier doest that mean kailangan ko din i upgrade yung stock speakers sa likod? Thanks po sa mga advice really appreciate it, zero zero po kasi ako sa audio.

[baludoy]

pa-ride na lang sa thread: kung iyong mga regular 3-way speaker ng pioneer for the front doors ng fd, ok ba ang output kung stock pa din ang hu?

[ParticleX]

If I indeed need an amplifier, what type or brand yung pinaka affordable and at the same time yung hindi makakasakop ng space. Kasi po ayaw ko sana talaga na may mabago dun sa kotse. Meaning yung pinaka hindi "invasive" na set up. Furthermore, kung talaga po na kailangan ko mag amplifier doest that mean kailangan ko din i upgrade yung stock speakers sa likod? Thanks po sa mga advice really appreciate it, zero zero po kasi ako sa audio.

Have you tried yung mga suggestions nung iba na DSP-related? Could be a simple settings problem.

Cheapest way eh i-try mo ibalik yung stock speakers para macheck where the problem lies. Nung araw na pina-install mo yung seps until today ganyan pa rin ba ang output? Tinanong nyo na po ba yung installer nyo kung bakit mahina tunog?

Paging jhnkvn.

[markygy]

*Baludoy,
Yes sir, turn the DSP settings to flat to enjoy those pioneer 3 way speakers.

[baludoy]

^ i used to do that all the time until i got too lazy doing it all the time

thanks bro!

[shibby75]

Ganyan din nangyari sa akin after mag separates ako, replacing the stock speakers. Baket ampangit ng tunog, samantalang the same speaker was installed on a friends car. Maganda naman ang tunog.

Napilitan tuloy ako maglagay ng ampli para makuha gusto ko na tunog.

[jhnkvn]

Here's my inputs so listen intently.

Your installation was done wrongly.

Also, I'll refute some concerns here..

1. You do not need an amplifier
Your speakers does not "demand" a static power requirement from your head unit, your speaker will demand what is needed of it. For example, if volume 10 needs 10W of power then volume 12 will need something like 18W of power. The only time you need an amplifier is when you're reaching the volume where it is needed. For example, at low-listening levels it is virtually impossible to distinguish a non-amp'ed system from an amp'ed system. Why? Because distortion is within unnoticeable levels. Once you crank it up and you hear harshness in the music will you only know because distortion rises when you demand more power from a limited 18W RMS head unit.

2. It is not DSP-related
A speaker moves by receiving electric signals +/- from your power source (built-in amplifiers of head units). The signal processing stage is before that. In other words, if you hear bass on your stock speakers.. you'll also hear bass on your aftermarket speakers. It won't magically have better/less bass because what it receives (e.g. EQ and filter settings) is exactly the same.

Now..

For your installation, madami factors pwede mali. However, I'll narrow the possibilities into two:

#1 Re-check your wirings
#2 Re-check your passive crossover

So to whoever installed your component, balikan mo. Sabihin mo mali yun wirings at hanapin saan yun mali. If it still persists, go save yourself another headache and go to a big-name car audio shop and have it rechecked.

[Carlo Castillo]

thanks po sa mga advice. just to clarify meron pa din po na bass kyalang considerably less kaysa sa stock. Sa mga mga civic FD po im sure familiar sila na very decent yung stock speaker sa pag produce ng bass. hindi ko po hinahanap yung sobrang lakas na bass as im not into sp audio set up. going back to the original speakers is no longer an option kasi po yung isa sira na and yung isa naman ay ginunting nila para magamit yung dating frame/mounting. As I have "upgraded" to separates Im expecting a marginally better improvement kaysa sa stock, what happened is the treble indeed improved kasi may tweeter na sya kayalang yun nga po bass nabawasan noticeably.

[Manilablock]

ma compare mo ba ung magnet ng stock speaker mo sa ipinalit mo, baka naman mas maliit ung magnet ng ipinalit mo, kaya instead na mag improve ung sound e less ang nakuha mo. ang performance ng speaker ay based din sa quality.

[markygy]

thanks po sa mga advice. just to clarify meron pa din po na bass kyalang considerably less kaysa sa stock. Sa mga mga civic FD po im sure familiar sila na very decent yung stock speaker sa pag produce ng bass. hindi ko po hinahanap yung sobrang lakas na bass as im not into sp audio set up. going back to the original speakers is no longer an option kasi po yung isa sira na and yung isa naman ay ginunting nila para magamit yung dating frame/mounting. As I have "upgraded" to separates Im expecting a marginally better improvement kaysa sa stock, what happened is the treble indeed improved kasi may tweeter na sya kayalang yun nga po bass nabawasan noticeably.

Mababawasan talaga yun bass nang bagong set of component speakers mo kase dalawa po ang nag fifilter nang bass frequencies. One is from the factory settings of the stock oem civic fd HU and the other one is from the passive filters that comes with your component speakers. You can turn off or set the filter of the stock oem HU to flat by following the steps that sir oj88 posted. This will now allow more bass to enter your speakers.

You can further improve the bass frequency response of the mid-bass speaker by installing them better by following what I posted earlier. .....Make sure na tama po ang kabit nang + & - wires sa speakers.

Subukan mo muna yun steps that was mentioned and see if there is any improvements.

Good luck!

[oj88]

2. It is not DSP-related
A speaker moves by receiving electric signals +/- from your power source (built-in amplifiers of head units). The signal processing stage is before that. In other words, if you hear bass on your stock speakers.. you'll also hear bass on your aftermarket speakers. It won't magically have better/less bass because what it receives (e.g. EQ and filter settings) is exactly the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong. You clearly have more grasp about the matter.

My take here is that, different speakers responds differently on certain frequencies. The stock speakers on the FD in particular are boomy, so I can understand why the factory DSP "EQ'd out" some of the low frequencies. Putting in a different speaker that has a more flat response, can be perceived to be a weak bass performer. That is why there's a need to flatten the EQ (which is what 'DSP Flat' does) to bring back the frequencies that the stock radio has attenuated.

This is the method how this hack is performed:
Honda Civic OEM radio Hack HD - YouTube

The difference is very apparent. It's like the "Loudness" button has been switched on.

[jhnkvn]

Correct me if I'm wrong. You clearly have more grasp about the matter.

My take here is that, different speakers responds differently on certain frequencies. The stock speakers on the FD in particular are boomy, so I can understand why the factory DSP "EQ'd out" some of the low frequencies. Putting in a different speaker that has a more flat response, can be perceived to be a weak bass performer. That is why there's a need to flatten the EQ (which is what 'DSP Flat' does) to bring back the frequencies that the stock radio has attenuated.

This is the method how this hack is performed:
Honda Civic OEM radio Hack HD - YouTube

The difference is very apparent. It's like the "Loudness" button has been switched on.

Hard to say oj,

Truthfully, factory speakers aren't all that bad. Most of them use the same material as more expensive speakers. For example, a lot of OEM manufacturers use paper cones. However, paper cones are normal in the industry - Scanspeak, for one, uses slitted paper cones. The problem is that they try to simply produce these at the most cost-efficient way possible. This is where it differs. For example, you often have smaller magnets, less voice coils, and a flimsy basket to house all of these.

The most common EQs in head units are the filters at the low-end (ex. an automatic 100hz filter). This is because stock speaker systems cannot go that low and dig down deep bass. First is that their construction does not let them do it because of weak power handling and not enough linear throw. So instead of the possibility of facing future lawsuits due to people doing volume 50 on their head unit and a speaker blows, the automotive company instead throws in filters in the head unit -- effectively "idiot-proofing" it.

But speakers by itself is just a mean for reproduction. A speaker driver can't be boomy -- this is because speaker performance is more dependent on its enclosure rather than the driver itself. This is very evidently seen in subwoofers. And this is also why you can easily interchange speaker drivers but they'll sound differently in other enclosure (ex. Wilson Audio use Scanspeak and Focal drivers but sound differently from distinct Focal loudspeakers -- all because of their enclosure).

Let's just assume factory speaker and aftermarket speaker performs similarly across the 100-400hz. Speaker engineering begins when you start digging down on extension (ex. you want a longer cone travel, a fatter magnet, a longer voice coil for that) or digging up (you need a lighter cone so it can vibrate more).

If it performs similarly, then with the same settings, we can assume they should sound the same -- except that the aftermarket speaker should be better (because it's constructed better so you hear more highs, better midrange, etc.). In this case, it isn't.

In that case, I will assume it's an installation error.

Madami kasi pwede cause ng weak bass and the major culprit is simply wrong wiring. If it isn't double signal filtration (using the passives), then it's definitely wrong wiring. That's why it's #1 on my post.

Now, for a more advanced lesson.. it has something to do with the concept of phase and polarity.

When you wire a speaker with a positive polarity, it's cone moves forward then backward. When you wire a speaker with negative polarity, you get a cone that moves backward then forward. Because sound is a wave, you have troughs and crests.

What happens when you have two speakers.. facing each other on opposite polarities? They cancel out. A null. This is because the trough of Speaker A meets the crest of Speaker B. It's like a +1 meeting a -1 and that adds up to 0. If you have a +1 meeting another +1, what you get is a +2 or a peak at that response. Hence depending on the progress of the wave, you may have a complete null or a partial null. I hypothesize the problem of this topic that of a partial null.

This is why the science of pursuing SQ in a car is damn hard. Take my car for example.. I have to control seven drivers and make sure their response is optimized for my driving seat. This is how tuning my car took me around 8 months to reach my ideal sound. However, I do have some compromises -- for example, midbass response in my passenger seat is weak. This is because at that place, the waves are colliding at each other and doing a partial null. But at the driver's seat, the response is peaky and whole. I had to do this in order to boost my midbass region without increasing the volume level para hindi masyado magvibrate doors ko (which creates resonance) - it's a volume boost due to speaker wave manipulation.

[oj88]

FWIW, the FD stock speakers' cones are made with a polymer-like material. At least I think it is.

You're probably right, polarity on one of the drivers could have been reversed.

I get what you mean about tweaking the system to perfection. My HU is already 4 years old and I still find myself tweaking the eq, delay, cross-overs, levels, DSPs, etc. whenever I get bored.

[kinyo]

...baka naman baliktad lang ung kabit ng wire sa speaker ...

yup ... bass is lessened when the woofers are out of phase

[markygy]

I wonder if the TS is getting all this information that we are posting.

Kamusta na ang tunog? Did you at least follow one of our advice?