E10 and Toyota Avanza (Vanzie)

[juanarodriguez]

Hi guys earlier I posted a posted a question re. E10 sa kabilang thread. Anyway, I wrote an email to TYT Philippines re. this matter and share ko lang yung response nila:

************************************************** *******

Dear Ms. ***********:

Thank you very much for visiting our Toyota website! We truly appreciate your interest in our products and services.

Generally, all Toyota vehicle model year 2004 onwards with Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) except 7KE and 1RZ-E engines can readily accept the use of Ethanol blended in gasoline, up to [a maximum of] 10% by volume or E10. We discourage the use of Ethanol in all carburetor-type engines in cars, as vapor lock may occur. This will make it difficult to start the cold engine in the morning.

Please bear in mind that, pure alcohol's calorific value is much less than gasoline's. This means you would use a little more alcohol, compared with gasoline, to get the same power / performance. Under normal conditions, this may not be a problem since we are using only 10% Alcohol and 90% Gasoline blend for E10. Its lower price is offered as an incentive.

Please buy E10 only from reputable gasoline stations and dealers. Alcohol tends to absorb water from the atmosphere, transport barge, underground storage tank, etc. and if proper handling during gasoline product transport and storage is not done, you may fill up on E10 with high water content. The water may damage your engine and corrode parts. You may want to inspect your fuel tank for water accumulation after some time.

Kindly do not hesitate to call our Customer Assistance Center at (02) 819 - 2912 should there be additional inquiry (ies), email correspondence is also welcome.

Thank you. Our best regards

_______________________________
Joanne Rellores
Customer Service Associate

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TOYOTA MOTOR PHILIPPINES CORP.·MARKETING DIVISION· VEHICLE SALES DEPARTMENT· CUSTOMER SERVICE SECTION· CUSTOMER ASSISTANCE GROUP
Makati Office 31st Floor GT TOWER INTERNATIONAL, 6813 Ayala Ave. cor H.V. Dela Costa, Salcedo Village, Makati City 1227·Email cac2*toyota.com.ph
Contact +63.2.819-2912 ext 8092·Fax +63.2.858-8040 to 41
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HTH

[Taurus]

Too bad that I just read this a couple of weeks ago . . .

The primary reason E-10 ethanol gas is harmful

is because of it's alcohol/ethanol solvent and water-absorbing qualities.

E-10 is also inconvenient because the shelf life of only 2-3 months.


Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) has several chemical properties and effects which render it to be incompatible with engine parts and vehicles -
Alcohols are water soluble, attract and absorb water/moisture, solvent, cleanser and cleaner, drying-agents, de-greaser...and more


Many motors, especially older engines, are constructed with parts that become very brittle over time and cannot withstand the effects of alcohol. When E10 gas is used, the engine components can disintegrate and clog the engine with sludge and grime, causing the engine to "lock up" and seize. When this happens, often the engine cannot be fixed and must be replaced.


Ethanol's effects vary depending on the engine type, model and year and type of fuel system, (Carbureted, direct-injected, 2 stroke or 4 stroke).


Marine engines are probably least compatible with ethanol-blend fuels. Aircraft agencies ban alcohol-blend fuels and are exempt from using E-10 and E-85.


Gasoline absorption of water is problematic (gas becomes contaminated and must be discarded).
Operating an engine on an alcohol content that is too high (over 10% for E10), will cause engine damage and poor performance.

http://www.fueltestkit.com/ethanol_problems_damage.html

[Taurus]

As a precautionary measure, below are some suggested list.

Precautions For Use of E10 Gas

MORE DETAILED INFORMATION can be found here: http://www.fueltestkit.com/2_precautions_e10_gas.html

1. Test gas for alcohol presence and to assure it is below the legal limit of 10%.
Gas alcohol levels above 10 percent can cause major damage to most engines.
Many pumps do not label when alcohol is added. Inexpensive portable Alcohol Fuel

2. Replace the gas in your fuel tank at least every 2-3 weeks.
The shelf life of E-10 gas is only 3 months (90-100 days) under ideal environmental conditions

3. Know the specific fuel laws for your state.
Many states still do not require the labeling of E10 gas at the pumps. View state ethanol labeling laws here: http://www.fuel-testers.com/state_gu...anol_laws.html

4. Check your owner's manual for fuel type recommended.
Older engines (prior to 1998) and several luxury vehicles do not permit the use of alcohol fuels. Many lower-priced and high mileage automobiles experience performance problems and part damage from the use of E10 gas.

5. Prevent external water and moisture (high humidity) from coming in contact with E-10 gas.

6. Ethanol-blend fuels will lower MPG in most engines; Fuel efficiency can decrease by 2-40%.
Maintain your engine to provide the best possible fuel efficiency. (Inflate tires, keep tuned, etc.).
View more information on fuel efficiency and mpg of E-10 gas.

7. Chose an octane level above 91, for an added level of security when purchasing E-10 gas,
If water contaminates (WC) your gas, the fuel will dilute and the octane level can drop up to 3 points.

8. Avoid all fuel additives and fuel system treatment products that contain ethanol or are alcohol-based,
Most octane boosters and fuel system cleaning products contain alcohol.

9. Become familiar with symptoms and effects of "bad gas", often caused by too high alcohol levels of gas.
Symptoms include varied engine malfunction including stalling, hesitation during WOT, smoke released from exhaust, clogged fuel filters and carburetors, damage to fuel and VRO pumps and pistons, disintegration and dissolving of engine parts (especially rubber and plastic), drying-out of parts (hoses), and more.

10. Save money - Contaminated gas can not be restored to the original composition.
No miracle product exists that will effectively prevent all water absorption or safely repair phase separation (PS) of gas.

11. Frequently check gasoline tank for signs of Water Contamination (WC) and Phase Separation (PS).
Two or three distinct layers will be seen after WC and PS occur.

12. Check the engine warranty for details and consequences of alcohol fuel use.
Most engine warranties exclude repairs caused by the use of fuel containing a high content of alcohol.

13. Install a water-separator filter (10 micron or better),

14. Store E-10 and E-85 ethanol gas in clean and dry tanks.
Fuel discoloration indicates gas contamination, often caused from the release (cleansing) of rust, dirt and sediment from the gas tank walls.

15. Properly discard any fuel that appears to have gone bad.

16. Keep your engine well tuned and lubricated and follow the manufacturers recommended maintenance schedule.
Replace parts that are not resistant to alcohol,
Plastic and rubber parts and hoses are most vulnerable. Fuel system and pumps, piston and carburetor and timing may need changes to be compatible.
Older engines often contain parts not designed to resist ethanol/alcohol.

17. Be aware that "private" gas pumps (EG. marine refilling stations) are not required to follow the same laws that pertain to public gas stations.

18. Airplanes (all aircraft) are exempt from using ethanol blends and all alcohol fuels.

19. Many types of engines are not designed for the use of alcohol fuel. This may include older cars and outboards, lawn and other small gas-powered equipment.
Only during the past 5-10 years, have the manufacturers' re-designed engines, when necessary, to be compatible with E-10 gas.

20. Consider purchasing an E85 Flex-Fuel vehicle.
E85 compatible engines contain parts specifically designed to withstand alcohol's negative effects, which will dramatically decrease your risks when buying E10 gas.

[woohoo]

Woah! I'm not going thru all this trouble and sacrifice peace of mind...

[userfriendly]

regular user of E10 on my Avanza. Ok naman no problems, dont notice if FC is lower. Always stuck in traffic so really poor FC.

[puroy]

just started using Shell's e10 (93 RON) since june. for me, nag improved yung FC ko from 9.5 to 10.02 km/L. Last week, I have just pumped Petron's e10 (95 RON). Will keep you updated since 2-3weeks pa ako magpapa-gas ulit.

btw, my vanzy is purely (90%) city driving.

[batangmahal]

Alcohol tends to absorb water from the atmosphere, transport barge, underground storage tank, etc. and if proper handling during gasoline product transport and storage is not done, you may fill up on E10 with high water content. The water may damage your engine and corrode parts. You may want to inspect your fuel tank for water accumulation after some time.

does this mean using e10 in the long run will be more of a bane rather than a boon?

[Memphis Raines]

Pardon my ignorance but I have always been puzzled why, of all substances, alcohol has to be blended with fuel when it has so much risk when used in the long run?

The benefits are seem to be always outweighed by the cons so why take the risk?



.

[niky]

Pardon my ignorance but I have always been puzzled why, of all substances, alcohol has to be blended with fuel when it has so much risk when used in the long run?

The benefits are seem to be always outweighed by the cons so why take the risk?



.

Politics.

Alcohol is a "politically correct" fuel. It's relatively carbon-neutral compared to petroleum products and it provides for the livelihood of farmers. Of course, the latter effect is being debated, as increased ethanol production from food crops is part of the reason food prices are getting so ungodly high nowadays. And the former effect is being mitigated by the fact that rainforest destruction is increasing because more rainforest is being cleared to make way for ethanol production.

-----

E10 is relatively harmless for new vehicles that are EFI. For older vehicles, it's a risk. I've heard that some stations won't put ethanol blends in carburated cars... and carburated passenger cars were sold here up to at least 2000. E10 cannot be used on aircraft and is problematic with marine craft. It can definitely not be used in two-stroke motorcycle engines as it will wash the oil off the cylinders in operation. (many small two-strokes used in gardening and industry/construction in the US fail when fueled with E10).

As for "caveat emptor"... at least with LPG, it's up to the buyer to take the risk. With E10... with the government trying to force all distributors to put ethanol in all gasoline blends in the near future... they're not giving people the choice.

And with LPG, the biggest issue, anyway, is the corrosive effect LPG has on exhaust valves that require tetraethyl lead for lubrication. Which doesn't really matter anymore, since all cars built since 1990 have hardened valves because gasoline no longer contains lead additive.

The other issues, backfire and leaning out, are all issues of tuning and installation... buy the right system from the right supplier and you will have no untoward or at least engine-destroying problems with your car. ;)

[Dr Nitro]

Alryt! Seems I have enough info to finally take the plunge and fill up on e10. Anyone know where I can find a Petron station that has e10? I always pass by the Petron at Aurora blvd/Broadway, but they dont have it yet.

[ngarcia]

I will give it a try as well, Im just emptying my tank (which is almost empty already and the warning light lid up today but I'll still let it run until the lid light keeps on blinking tom)

From sir Puroy experience, I will try first the Shell e10. Ngayung weekend ko mati-test yung run when I go to subic.

[puroy]

Alryt! Seems I have enough info to finally take the plunge and fill up on e10. Anyone know where I can find a Petron station that has e10? I always pass by the Petron at Aurora blvd/Broadway, but they dont have it yet.

Here you go...

Petron E10 Premium is now available in these Petron service stations in Metro Manila:

- Visayas Avenue, Quezon City
- Marcos Hi-way (Westbound), Pasig City
- Marcos Hi-way (Eastbound), Pasig City
- A Santos Ave, Paranaque
- San Marcelino, Paco Manila
- Quezon Avenue, Quezon City
- Osmena, Hi-way Makati
- Shaw Blvd., Pasig City
- Macapagal Ave., Pasay City
- West Service Road, Paranaque
- Circumferential Road, Antipolo
- FB Harrison, Manila
- Boni Ave., Mandaluyong
- Ortigas Extension, Taytay Rizal

[lems09]

Pardon my ignorance but I have always been puzzled why, of all substances, alcohol has to be blended with fuel when it has so much risk when used in the long run?

The benefits are seem to be always outweighed by the cons so why take the risk?



.

Its political in nature. Considering that we are importing our ethanol for gasoline blend!

[Memphis Raines]

double post

[juanarodriguez]

well if you read between the lines what the email says can be summarized into two words "Caveat Emptor"

[SIZE=2]

caveat emptor (kah-vee-ott emptor) Latin for "let the buyer beware." The basic premise that the buyer buys at his/her own risk and therefore should examine and test a product himself/herself for obvious defects and imperfections. Caveat emptor still applies even if the purchase is "as is" or when a defect is obvious upon reasonable inspection before purchase. Since implied warranties (assumed quality of goods) and consumer protections have come upon the legal landscape, the seller is held to a higher standard of disclosure than "buyer beware" and has responsibility for defects which could not be noted by casual inspection (particularly since modern devices cannot be tested except by use, and so many products are pre-packaged).

[/SIZE][SIZE=2]source: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti.../caveat+emptor[/SIZE]

well E10 is relatively new here in the Philippines...when LPG was introduced here ganon din naman mixed reaction....I remember a friend telling me to choose petrol stations located sa area na hindi binabaha, etc. kasi may possibility na pumasok sa tank yung water and other impurities...if that is the case then pati yung mga existing unleaded/premium petrol available in the market eh nakakatakot din gamitin

hopefully in the future when auto manufacturers develop new cars they will take into consideration adding more safety features or whatever para sure na if we use E10 or other petrol we don't need to worry about impurities damaging our cars.

Eh wondering lang po, meron kayang mga gas station dito sa pinas that closely monitor their tanks, or take petrol sample from their tanks several times daily to monitor the quality of their products?

sana may makadevelop ng "fuel dispensers/pumps" that will display the water, particulates level, etc in realtime, yung kita while nagpapagas hehehe...

[woohoo]

well if you read between the lines what the email says can be summarized into two words <b><i>&quot;Caveat Emptor&quot;

well E10 is relatively new here in the Philippines...when LPG was introduced here ganon din naman mixed reaction....

Tama, pero hindi kagaya ng ethanol, ang LPG conversion walang ganun kasamang effect sa makina. (yata, hehe). Pero ako, hindi mixed ang reaction ko. Ayaw ko talagang mag-take ng risk. Sa LPG ako nagdadalawang-isip pa. hehe.

I remember a friend telling me to choose petrol stations located sa area na hindi binabaha, etc. kasi may possibility na pumasok sa tank yung water and other impurities...if that is the case then pati yung mga existing unleaded/premium petrol available in the market eh nakakatakot din gamitin

Tama ang friend mo. Yung L200 ko, nadale na sa ganyan. A few days (weeks?) after this certain Shell gas station experienced flooding (this happens a few times every year, i think), nagpakarga ako sa kanila. After a few days, pumapalya-palya na ang diesel engine ko. Then it happened: ayaw nang mag-start. I had to have it towed back home and then towed by the mechanic to his shop the day after. Good thing hindi naman nasira ang makina. Never did go back to that Shell station. Matagal na rin naman ang rumors na mandaraya sila, but that experience broke the camel's back, so to speak. BTW, nagpakarga ako ng diesel, punong-puno yung 1Gallon (3.78 liters) container (ng coolant) dun sa kabilang Petron, umapaw pa nang kaunti, pero siguro wala namang isang kutsara ang natapon. 4.81 liters siya!!! Siguro I'll have to go back to the suki at ipapafull refill ko din para consistent ang observation. Dati kasi, pinasakto ko lang sa Php250, pero nagkasya ba naman ang 4.55 liters sa isang 3.78-liter (dapat) na container! I'll get back to you guys on this.