Electric Vios

**A121** · February 16th, 2011 02:06 PM

Development of new battery technologies seem to be slower than other technologies such as telecommunications. It seems that the Honda FCX Clarity is the future.

http://www.nus.edu.sg/ilo/news/newsletter0411.html
Hydrogen Powered Technologies and the Future

**tidus1203** · February 16th, 2011 02:10 PM

My only reason to like hydrogen over electric is simple. PRACTICALITY and it is so similar to how we power our cars now and I like it to be the same... Oil companies will then have to become hydrogen companies and fuel our cars and we pay them...

**uls** · February 16th, 2011 02:12 PM

the savings is not only about fuel, but also about the environment. pero tama ka sir, dapat bumaba muna unit price and battery costs, plus tumaas ang range (but really, my daily drive is only 30kms both ways) for it to be considered. at sana nga this will happen soon.

some of us arent environmentalists

what's more important to some of us is cost

maintenance cost, cost of ownership

maybe other people are willing to spend more just to be kinder to the environment

but we consider cost first

if a product is good and it costs less than its competitors, and it also happens to be kinder to the environment, then good

but we don't buy a product for its pro-environment characteristics

we buy it coz it makes sense

we wouldnt pay more for something just to make a pro-environment statement

**ghosthunter** · February 16th, 2011 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by A121

Development of new battery technologies seem to be slower than other technologies such as telecommunications. It seems that the Honda FCX Clarity is the future.

http://www.nus.edu.sg/ilo/news/newsletter0411.html
Hydrogen Powered Technologies and the Future

Battery technology has not kept up with demand, example in portable electronics. The same goes for electric cars since they use similar technologies for their battery packs. The energy density is still too low for electric cars to be widely accepted by the common motorist.

100 to 150km driving range sounds a lot but as Tiff of Fifth Gear found out, driving at night severely cuts down the driving range. That is just with the lights. How about driving around with the electric car aircon going? This is something to consider given we live in a tropical country. That 100 to 150km driving range might quickly become 40 to 70 km driving range in conditions like Metro Manila at night in summer.

**anonemus** · February 16th, 2011 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by A121

Development of new battery technologies seem to be slower than other technologies such as telecommunications. It seems that the Honda FCX Clarity is the future.

http://www.nus.edu.sg/ilo/news/newsletter0411.html
Hydrogen Powered Technologies and the Future

The reason for the seemingly slow batt tech development is the market. Demand for electric car is only starting to really pick up with various car manufacturers scrambling to introduce e-cars (Nissan, Ford, BMW, Volvo, etc.), so now there is a race for better battery tech. It will scale up rapidly.

The problem with hydrogen is that its generation is inefficient compared to electric. Plus, the infrastructure needed to build so many hydro refilling stations. Di kasi pwede iretrofit yung mga gas stations to distribute hydrogen.

Fuel cell efficiency is limited because "the energy required to isolate hydrogen from natural compounds (water, natural gas, biomass), package the light gas by compression or liquefaction, transfer the energy carrier to the user, plus the energy lost when it is converted to useful electricity with fuel cells, leaves around 25% for practical use... For comparison, the 'well-to-wheel' efficiency is at least three times greater for electric cars than for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles."[4][5]
The efficiency of the vehicle's engine does not take into account the efficiency at which hydrogen is produced, stored, and transported today. Fuel cell vehicles running on compressed hydrogen may have a power-plant-to-wheel efficiency of 22% if the hydrogen is stored as high-pressure gas, and 17% if it is stored as liquid hydrogen.[6] In addition to the production losses, some of the electricity used for hydrogen production, comes from thermal power, which only has an efficiency of 33% to 48% resulting in emission of carbon dioxide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell_vehicle

This is the reason why the US gov't will drop further research into hydrogen and clean diesel

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...car-research/1

(At sa totoo lang, pakana ng mga oil companies like Shell, Chevron, etc yang fuel cell kasi alam nila na pag wala na talaga fossil fuel mawawalan na sila ng negosyo; so rather than selling gas, they would like to sell hydrogen. Talo sila sa electric as the electric companies will benefit a lot! tidus--bili ka na ng Meralco shares ;))

**uls** · February 16th, 2011 02:34 PM

why is it di mamatay matay ang conspiracy theory that oil companies are conspiring to supress/kill alternative energy

**ghosthunter** · February 16th, 2011 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by tidus1203

My only reason to like hydrogen over electric is simple. PRACTICALITY and it is so similar to how we power our cars now and I like it to be the same... Oil companies will then have to become hydrogen companies and fuel our cars and we pay them...

A few problems with hydrogen as fuel. Energy density of hydrogen is about half of that to gasoline. So if 50L of gasoline can take you 400km, hydrogen will only do 200km.

Adding to the problem of hydrogen is the storage required to keep hydrogen in a car. Classic storage would be a highly insulated compressed gas tank. Any failure would be like a grenade going off, if the hydrogen fueled flames didn't barbecue you first. But even if the tank didn't rupture, hydrogen atoms are very small, they can seep directly through materials, including common metals.

Next, who is going to supply hydrogen? How will hydrogen be economically and competitively produced? It takes a lot of energy to generate hydrogen from water via electrolysis. Who will be the first to setup a hydrogen filling station? Given the limits of hydrogen on driving range, it should have a RETAIL selling price half of gasoline. So at the current price of gasoline at P48/L, hydrogen should have a RETAIL price ceiling of P24/L.

For me, hydrogen has a long way to go before it can be a viable alternative fuel.

**anonemus** · February 16th, 2011 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by tidus1203

And you assume as well going forward electricity rates will remain the same? They also go up as well especially if all of us go electric... Then petrol will drop cause of low demand

tidus-- you're a businessman, please see this graph:

Originally Posted by uls

some of us arent environmentalists

what's more important to some of us is cost

maintenance cost, cost of ownership

maybe other people are willing to spend more just to be kinder to the environment

but we consider cost first

if a product is good and it costs less than its competitors, and it also happens to be kinder to the environment, then good

but we don't buy a product for its pro-environment characteristics

we buy it coz it makes sense

we wouldnt pay more for something just to make a pro-environment statement

I agree. for now its a niche market and among those niche buyers are environmentalists and those that like to have the latest tech.

Originally Posted by ghosthunter

100 to 150km driving range sounds a lot but as Tiff of Fifth Gear found out, driving at night severely cuts down the driving range. That is just with the lights. How about driving around with the electric car aircon going? This is something to consider given we live in a tropical country. That 100 to 150km driving range might quickly become 40 to 70 km driving range in conditions like Metro Manila at night in summer.

Tama. But we're better off in the tropics kasi batteries' performance in very cold environment degrades; and heater requires more electricity that cooler. for me personally, i'm still okay with a 40-70 range given that i only commute 30kms a day. but this is not practical for a road trip nga lang...

Originally Posted by uls

why is it di mamatay matay ang conspiracy theory that oil companies are conspiring to supress/kill alternative energy

kasi baka totoo? :D

**ghosthunter** · February 16th, 2011 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by anonemus

The reason for the seemingly slow batt tech development is the market. Demand for electric car is only starting to really pick up with various car manufacturers scrambling to introduce e-cars (Nissan, Ford, BMW, Volvo, etc.), so now there is a race for better battery tech. It will scale up rapidly.

I seem to have an opposite view on this. Battery technology has been going on as fast as electronics. The problem is, breakthroughs in battery tech has been slow due to the nature of the research.

Battery tech is a major concern of electronics, especially portable electronics like mobile phones, laptops, digital cameras, etc. The same technology can and has been used for electric cars.

**ghosthunter** · February 16th, 2011 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by anonemus

tidus-- you're a businessman, please see this graph:

One thing the graph does not take into consideration is the increase on global production of oil due to higher prices. How? Given that oil will command a higher price, oil reserves that were previously untapped because of high cost considerations have now become economically viable to extract.

So the theory of "peak-oil" may just go the way of the so-called news/science of "global-cooling" in the 1970s.