Are Pinoys better than their SEA counterparts?

**Jun aka Pekto** · February 19th, 2007 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by midinite

apa kabar. shhh. not so loud. they indonesians have nuclear subs.

I think the Indonesian subs are diesel not nuclear. The Kilo-class look like nuclear subs because of their streamlined shapes. It got me fooled for a moment too. They are very quiet and perfect for deployment in Indonesian waters.

A quick look at their Order Of Battle show them having MiG-29's, F-16s, F-5s, Hawk trainers, Hind attack helicopters, OV-10 Bronco counter insurgency aircraft, A-4 Skyhawks, fairly modern frigates and missile attack boats, and a number of submarines.

Their army is a bit less modern, having mainly old French-made AMX-13 as their main tanks. The rest are APC's (Scorpions) and self-propelled artillery. Not a big loss. A bunch of islands doesn't really require a huge armored force. They do have a big airlift and sealift capability which is important for a country as widespread as Indonesia.

In any case, they have a much better-equipped military than the Philippines.

**midinite** · February 19th, 2007 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Jun aka Pekto

I think the Indonesian subs are diesel not nuclear. The Kilo-class look like nuclear subs because of their streamlined shapes. It got me fooled for a moment too. They are very quiet and perfect for deployment in Indonesian waters.

A quick look at their Order Of Battle show them having MiG-29's, F-16s, F-5s, Hawk trainers, Hind attack helicopters, OV-10 Bronco counter insurgency aircraft, A-4 Skyhawks, fairly modern frigates and missile attack boats, and a number of submarines.

Their army is a bit less modern, having mainly old French-made AMX-13 as their main tanks. The rest are APC's (Scorpions) and self-propelled artillery. Not a big loss. A bunch of islands doesn't really require a huge armored force. They do have a big airlift and sealift capability which is important for a country as widespread as Indonesia.

In any case, they have a much better-equipped military than the Philippines.

I stand corrected. thanks for the clarification. btw, does the philippines have any subs?

Oh and they say Australia bends backwards for Indonesia coz they are afraid of its military strength as well. But I could be wrong.

Question is how behind the Philippines is Indonesia if it is now building our roads?

Would you say Indonesia has a more inferior air program as well?

**Jun aka Pekto** · February 19th, 2007 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by midinite

I stand corrected. thanks for the clarification. btw, does the philippines have any subs?

Oh and they say Australia bends backwards for Indonesia coz they are afraid of its military strength as well. But I could be wrong.

Question is how behind the Philippines is Indonesia if it is now building our roads?

Would you say Indonesia has a more inferior air program as well?

I think Australia's being paranoid. Those diesel subs are best for defense such as ambushing other warships which makes sense with all of Indonesia's islands to hide in. If those subs were nuclear (and blue-water, ocean-going), then Australia should be worried. But, nuclear subs are expensive to maintain.

Indonesia's combat aircraft are composed mainly of relatively short-range aircraft except maybe for the F-16 and MiG-29. Also, looking around, it seems they also replaced their A-4 Skyhawks with Russian Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30MK. Hmmm. No wonder the Australians are paranoid.....

Indonesia's not to be messed with.....

In any case, even the African countries of Ethiopea and Eritrea(Somalia?) have Su-27's. Why can't the Philippines? Sad......

Indonesia building roads in the Philippines? Has it really been that bad since Marcos' time? I may not have liked his rule. But, at least he had enough common sense to keep the AFP well-equipped.

**Gumusut_Amige** · February 19th, 2007 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Jun aka Pekto

I think Australia's being paranoid. Those diesel subs are best for defense such as ambushing other warships which makes sense with all of Indonesia's islands to hide in. If those subs were nuclear (and blue-water, ocean-going), then Australia should be worried. But, nuclear subs are expensive to maintain.

Indonesia's combat aircraft are composed mainly of relatively short-range aircraft except maybe for the F-16 and MiG-29. Also, looking around, it seems they also replaced their A-4 Skyhawks with Russian Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30MK. Hmmm. No wonder the Australians are paranoid.....

Indonesia's not to be messed with.....

In any case, even the African countries of Ethiopea and Eritrea(Somalia?) have Su-27's. Why can't the Philippines? Sad......

Indonesia building roads in the Philippines? Has it really been that bad since Marcos' time? I may not have liked his rule. But, at least he had enough common sense to keep the AFP well-equipped.

huwag masyadong malungkot, meron naman tayong F-15....

3 x F5 nga lang...

**Jun aka Pekto** · February 19th, 2007 09:33 PM

As for how far behind Indonesia the Philippines is......

I don't know. The state of the Indonesian military seems to indicate the Indonesian government have money to spend.

Either Indonesia is really that much better off or its government is much more level-headed and has little corruption.

But the state of the PAF is way past crisis point without a single operational jet fighter. At least, I remember the Blue Diamonds performing a show.

As for the PN.... These are it. No missile boats that could take on bigger ships and certainly no subs.
http://www.timawa.net/pn.htm

**Jun aka Pekto** · February 19th, 2007 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Gumusut_Amige

huwag masyadong malungkot, meron naman tayong F-15....3 x F5 nga lang...

Nope. Those 3 can't fly anymore. I realize the Philippine government wants to limit coups by the military. But, even I didn't expect them to go this far. So, what happens if the Philippines is invaded?

Just like that Ghostbuster cliche, "Who you gonna call?" Who else? We all know who......

Well, I suppose if the Philippines is invaded and the Pinoys mounted a guerilla war, I'd come over and join. That's why I still spend time in the firing range and staying fit.

**KoKoNAT** · February 20th, 2007 08:58 AM

I know this is OT but I have to clarify things...

Australia is not 'afraid' of Indonesia because of their military. More like 'wary'. Same way as the US was 'wary' of the Soviets back in the Cold War but I doubt the US was 'afraid'. If I say: "the Philippines is 'afraid' of China because of its vast military". What do you think your reaction would be?

Australia's ADF may be small as compared to Indonesia's but it's modern and professional. An impressive force actually, who do you think was the first to come to Indonesia's aid after the Boxing Day Tsunami? And more importantly, the ADF doesn't meddle into politics, unlike some of its neighbours.

As for Indonesia's Sukhois, they currently have a grand total of 4, 2 Su-27s and 2 Su-31s, with a possible future order of 24 more Sukhois and variants. This against Australia's current force of 71 F/A-18A/Bs Hornets and 28 F-111s, with a current order of 24 F/A-18C/D Super Hornets (to replace the F-111s) and a future order of 100 F-35s (to replace the F/A-18s).

I'm really afraid of the Indonesians and their Sukhois now...really...

**evs_13** · February 20th, 2007 10:01 AM

IMO, pantay lang us sa ibang SEA nation. may ibang area na mas lamang us sa iba meron din area na lamang naman sila.....

**Jun aka Pekto** · February 20th, 2007 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by KoKoNAT

I know this is OT but I have to clarify things...

Australia is not 'afraid' of Indonesia because of their military. More like 'wary'. Same way as the US was 'wary' of the Soviets back in the Cold War but I doubt the US was 'afraid'. If I say: "the Philippines is 'afraid' of China because of its vast military". What do you think your reaction would be?

Australia's ADF may be small as compared to Indonesia's but it's modern and professional. An impressive force actually, who do you think was the first to come to Indonesia's aid after the Boxing Day Tsunami? And more importantly, the ADF doesn't meddle into politics, unlike some of its neighbours.

As for Indonesia's Sukhois, they currently have a grand total of 4, 2 Su-27s and 2 Su-31s, with a possible future order of 24 more Sukhois and variants. This against Australia's current force of 71 F/A-18A/Bs Hornets and 28 F-111s, with a current order of 24 F/A-18C/D Super Hornets (to replace the F-111s) and a future order of 100 F-35s (to replace the F/A-18s).

I'm really afraid of the Indonesians and their Sukhois now...really...

That's what I mean. Browsing around defense forums, it seems like some Aussies are raising a fuss about Indonesia's military (especially the subs) when most of Indonesia's military are geared mostly for defensive purposes. They certainly don't have the offensive capability to threaten a nation like Australia. It does make Australia more wary if they ever had to deal with those subs. The likelihood of that happening is unlikely unless another strongman like Sukarno takes power in Indonesia and limits passage along its waters.

Still, it isn't always the numbers game. A number of ASEAN countries have modern jet fighters with well-trained crews to match. I remember reading (Soldier Of Fortune?) several years ago USN pilots (who are well-trained themselves) engage Malaysian Air Force MiG-29s in an exercise. All they could say was the Malaysians put up a stiff fight which was probably short for the navy guys getting their butts kicked. That helmet-mounted HUD gave most MiG-29 and Su-27 pilots a big advantage which wasn't remedied by the US until recently when they came out with their own helmet-mounted HUD (and in fact is the best out there now). I would imagine the Indonesian Air Force pilots flying these modern Sukhois are well-trained as well, at least as well-trained as any of its neighbors.

The Philippines should follow Malaysia and Indonesia's lead and switch to Russian-made military hardware. Get the best bang for the buck. If not Russian, then French. At least those two countries don't attach many strings to their deals. Right now, anything's better than the status quo for the PAF.

**Jun aka Pekto** · February 20th, 2007 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by KoKoNAT

I know this is OT but I have to clarify things...

Australia is not 'afraid' of Indonesia because of their military. More like 'wary'. Same way as the US was 'wary' of the Soviets back in the Cold War but I doubt the US was 'afraid'. If I say: "the Philippines is 'afraid' of China because of its vast military". What do you think your reaction would be?

Well, if the Spratley issue came up again and it turned to a shooting war, I don't think the Philippines can do anything. A single Chinese-made laser guided bomb will erase the Philippine presence there.

My reaction? I don't have any problems admitting I'm afraid of China's military if I was in the Philippines. If I'm afraid, it galvanizes me into action. I make plans. I make preparations. I find ways to increase my chances of survival and making the enemy pay in blood.

The problem with the Philippine government is that it doesn't seem to be afraid enough to maintain its military. It should be.