Alonso or Schumi?

[Tailhook]

they dont call schumi the 'rain meister' or 'rain master' without any reason. in the dry and on equal machinery, schumi is at par or is even faster than senna over a race distance. however, when it rains and on equal machinery, i dont think anybody can touch schumi. not even senna, prost, hakinnen, etc.

in hungaroring, it was clearly the bridgestone tyes which were at fault. the michelins then had a clear advantage in the wet.

[number001]

yeah, michelin had the upper hand in hungaroring this year. but then i was only reacting to ur previous post that alonso overtook schumi because they were on different strategies. yes they were, but the fuel load factor was in favor of schumi. parang ang pagkakaintindi ko kasi sa post mo, na-overtake lang ni alonso si schumi dahil either tama ang ginamit na tyres ni alonso at mali ang tyres ni schumi, or mas magaan si alonso. and we all know na both of the above aren't true. and regardless of whether michelin had the upper hand in that race, give credit where credit is due. alonso drove like crazy in the opening laps. other michelin runners could have done what alonso did din if we go by the michelin theory. but as far as i can remember, alonso was the only michelin driver that overtook schumi on the track.

Alonso running a lighter load is incorrect based on facts you presented. I still need to check if the pit data you presented is correct.

"tama ang ginamit na tyres ni alonso at mali ang tyres ni schumi" - this is the cause of Ferrari's lack of pace. Otherwise how would you explain a Renault overtaking a Ferrari in that condition so easily? Remember this track is like Monaco, in the sense that overtaking is very difficult.

Anyone is free to come out with the reason why Alonso is quick to overtake MS with a heavier car or something. But remember this, it is difficult to overtake Michael on-track because he is very aggressive in protecting his position. In Hungaroring, Michael showed how difficult it is to pass him in the RIGHT conditions. De La Rosa in the Mclaren took ages to pass him as well as, *sURPRISe*, also Mr. Alonso in the later stages of the race. I also base the hard-to-pass-MS-claim on previous races in the past, such as Magny Cours '00 when Coulthard got so frustrated being bottled up behind MS. In hindsight, it is indeed quite out-of-character of MS to let Alonso through so easily in the early stages of the race, unless there was something amiss in MS' car.

Despite Renault's technical superiority in this track, I do notice Alonso always outpacing his teammate, Fisichella all the time even on other tracks. It is truly an indication of a good driver.

so hypothetically, if you put schumi in a HONDA this season tas umulan sa japan, china or brazil, mananalo sya?

point ko lang, yes schumi is a fantastic driver in the rain BUT dependent din ang success nya sa lakas ng kotse nya.

It is would be unfair to make statements that claims about something without having anything concrete, which is way I disgress from predicting Michael will win on any car given it rains hard. Rather, I present evidences based on past races in which Michael had unexpected race results or position despite qualifying poorly but because of the rain, however, the tables were turned. Basing on historical performances, it is quite indicative MS will drive well in the rain but it is no guarantee of anything such as a sure win on anything. As mentioned before, several factors vary.

But with all things being equal or consistent across all other underlying factors, Michael has proven time and time again that driving aggressively in the rain is not a problem he should be worried about. Rubens is also another driver who will surely do well in the rain, based on past experiences. As for Alonso being a strong performer in the rain, it is unfair to assume that his performance in the dry would be instantly indicative of his performance in the wet. It is whole different ball game in the wet and unless he shown what he can do in the wet, it is difficult to pass a judgement on him, yet.

[bbt]

Alonso running a lighter load is incorrect based on facts you presented. I still need to check if the pit data you presented is correct.

umm i dont think he said that alonso ran a lighter load... cause it says on his post that both statements aren't true.

"tama ang ginamit na tyres ni alonso at mali ang tyres ni schumi" - this is the cause of Ferrari's lack of pace. Otherwise how would you explain a Renault overtaking a Ferrari in that condition so easily? Remember this track is like Monaco, in the sense that overtaking is very difficult.

umm... driver's skill?

Anyone is free to come out with the reason why Alonso is quick to overtake MS with a heavier car or something. But remember this, it is difficult to overtake Michael on-track because he is very aggressive in protecting his position. In Hungaroring, Michael showed how difficult it is to pass him in the RIGHT conditions. De La Rosa in the Mclaren took ages to pass him as well as, *sURPRISe*, also Mr. Alonso in the later stages of the race. I also base the hard-to-pass-MS-claim on previous races in the past, such as Magny Cours '00 when Coulthard got so frustrated being bottled up behind MS. In hindsight, it is indeed quite out-of-character of MS to let Alonso through so easily in the early stages of the race, unless there was something amiss in MS' car.

didn't MS essentially become a backmarker in hungary because Alonso was so far ahead that he had lapped schumi?

It is would be unfair to make statements that claims about something without having anything concrete, which is way I disgress from predicting Michael will win on any car given it rains hard. Rather, I present evidences based on past races in which Michael had unexpected race results or position despite qualifying poorly but because of the rain, however, the tables were turned. Basing on historical performances, it is quite indicative MS will drive well in the rain but it is no guarantee of anything such as a sure win on anything. As mentioned before, several factors vary.

but you just said in your earlier post that the car has nothing to do with the driver's dominance in the rain... aren't you contradicting yourself?

But with all things being equal or consistent across all other underlying factors, Michael has proven time and time again that driving aggressively in the rain is not a problem he should be worried about. Rubens is also another driver who will surely do well in the rain, based on past experiences. As for Alonso being a strong performer in the rain, it is unfair to assume that his performance in the dry would be instantly indicative of his performance in the wet. It is whole different ball game in the wet and unless he shown what he can do in the wet, it is difficult to pass a judgement on him, yet.

alonso had a gigantic lead in hungary, i think that is an indicator that when the entire package is working, he is also (take note, also, meaning this doesn't mean that he is any better than schumi) capable of superb driving, even when the track is wet.

[number001]

umm... driver's skill?

umm... Re-read the third paragraph of my last post. I said overtaking MS is really difficult (that's his reputation) so there may be something wrong with the Ferrari which allowed Alonso to overtake so easily without much of a fight at the first part of the race but not so in the later stages, when it took Alonso so many laps to try passing the Ferrari. If the Renault passed the Ferrari easily without a fight on both instances, then I would give credit to Renault and Alonso hands down. You see there are inconsistencies.

didn't MS essentially become a backmarker in hungary because Alonso was so far ahead that he had lapped schumi?

No. AFAIK, they were competing head on until those intermediate tyres of Michael became useless, which allowed Alonso to pass after so many laps of trying to do so. MS did get lapped near the end of the race when his tires had total failure.

but you just said in your earlier post that the car has nothing to do with the driver's dominance in the rain... aren't you contradicting yourself?

Re-read the 5th paragraph again, I was being careful and fair before someone starts overanalyzing my every word. When I said that driver's skills mattered more than a fast car, I was referring to past races when a driver managed to succeed despite driving a second or third tier car. Dont you find it amazing how such low-tier teams (like Tyrell, Ligier, Stewart -their modern equivalents are Red Bull and Toyota) winning to everyone's surprise and against all expectations. Now that's what I'm talking about. At that time driver skills mattered much more than machine, and comparing it to all modern gadgetry (ie. traction control) decking modern cars today and does nothing but help mask the inadequacies of drivers. Michael is from that era so that's why I really believe in all his accomplishments. He has proven he deserves his achievements, despite all the noise of controversies others choose to dwell on instead.

alonso had a gigantic lead in hungary, i think that is an indicator that when the entire package is working, he is also (take note, also, meaning this doesn't mean that he is any better than schumi) capable of superb driving, even when the track is wet.

What "gigantic lead"? Alonso was working his way up the order. He was trying to overtake Michael when those Bridgestone Intermediate tires on the Ferrari were about to expire on the rapidly drying track, which allowed Alonso to pounce MS after so many laps trying to do so. Before Alonso crashed, he was trying to wrestle P2 or P3 from somebody else.

[bbt]

what hungarian GP are you talking about?? because if you are talking about the 2006 gp, alonso only had to overtake schumacher once. the second time he passed, he was lapping schumacher. the renault that had difficulty overtaking schumacher was driven by fisichella, in fact they even had some wheel-to-wheel collissions because schumi didnt want to let fisi through. and no, alonso was NOT working his way up the order when he retired from the race. he was in FIRST place. the closest contender was jenson button, who had managed to get there because the previous 2nd placer (raikkonen) had collided with a backmarker. so yes, alonso did have a gigantic lead.

EDIT: if you want proof, here is the press release from the official f1 web site http://www.formula1.com/race/news/4777/763.html

[number001]

^Ok my bad. Got confused bet. Fisi and Alonso. Alonso was indeed quick in the race.

[Horsepower]

Alonso or Schumi?

I'd go with Schumi anyday. :D

He is a genius, ruthless on the track and ultra-focused on winning.

Alonso is such a whiner. Talks too much. He doesn't have the charisma that Schumi is overflowing with.

Next year, Kimi will annihilate him.

[allen_the_great]

He is a genius, ruthless on the track and ultra-focused on winning.

those qualities are good, as long as hindi sumobra to the point na PAMINSAN eh nandadaya na..

Alonso is such a whiner. Talks too much.

yup! but that's what makes him interesting also. kesa naman parang bato kang driver diba? i'd personally go for a driver who wears his heart on his sleeves. tho sana magmellow down din sya ng konti. konti lang. at least hindi siya tulad ng isang ICEMAN dyan na nakikita sa mga nightclubs and nalalasing tas nagwawala. mas hindi naman pwede maging role model ang ganun.

He doesn't have the charisma that Schumi is overflowing with.

umm.. charisma is relative.... u cant generalize na walang charisma si alonso. and schumi overflowing with charisma?:hysterical: oops, relative pla ang charisma and apparently, malakas hatak ni schumi sayo. (and malakas hatak ni alonso sakin!) haha:bwahaha:

Next year, Kimi will annihilate him.

lol. we'll see about that. babalikan natin tong thread na to next season ng F1. tingnan natin who annihilates who.

[allen_the_great]

^Ok my bad. Got confused bet. Fisi and Alonso. Alonso was indeed quick in the race.

yep. argument ko lang naman is ung may nagpost na sure win si michael sa japan and brazil pag wet race. and hindi lang si alonso ang pwedeng makatalo sa kanya. as uv mentioned, kahit sino pwede manalo sa wet race.

[CVT]

Ang tagal pa kasi ng Oct 1. Mas maraming tanong ang masasagot pag nag-race na ulit....