Russia's 'invasion and occupation' of Ukrainian territory.

[Yatta]

Read the entire article rather than just picking up soundbites for your agenda.

Of course Ukraine needed to rearm vs the 800 lb gorilla in the room who had just treacherously (!!!!!!) Annexed Crimea from them.

What..did you expect them to lay down and die so Russia can peacefully roll over them?

Lol.

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Thats what the ill-logic of apologists.

[uls]

let's go back to why i posted this:

sa ngayon neither side wants nego

for ukraine, nego means giving up some territory but that's unacceptable for them

for russia there's no point in nego they can't trust the west

turned out the 2014 minsk agreement was a ruse

the west never intended to abide by it

it was only to buy time for ukraine to prepare for war

from now on russia cannot sign agreements with the west

that's in response to this:

General Milley: Russia-Ukraine war will end with negotiations



https://kyivindependent.com/news-fee...h-negotiations

my point is the minsk agreement was used to fool russia

so how can there be negotiations to end this war if russia can no longer make agreements with the west

[uls]

so my view is there will be no nego

russia will not nego

the west is unlikely to nego

the west is determined to escalate

[EQAddict]

let's go back to why i posted this:



that's in response to this:




my point is the minsk agreement was used to fool russia

so how can there be negotiations to end this war if russia can no longer make agreements with the west

Who fooled who?

Who invaded whom when they said they wouldnt?

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[EQAddict]

so my view is there will be no nego

russia will not nego

the west is unlikely to nego

the west is determined to escalate

For once i agree with you.


There has to be a strategic defeat one way or another.

Kicking russia out of Ukraine isnt escalation though. Its survival .

Plain n simple.

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[uls]

there are some US politicians calling for less support for ukraine so the US can focus on china

the latest one is republican senator Josh Hawley



but the biden white house is unlikely to wind down support for ukraine

[tsupermario]

Read the entire article rather than just picking up soundbites for your agenda.

Of course Ukraine needed to rearm vs the 800 lb gorilla in the room who had just treacherously (!!!!!!) Annexed Crimea from them.

What..did you expect them to lay down and die so Russia can peacefully roll over them?

Lol.

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ukraine needed all the help it can get

Following the 2013–2014 Euromaidan uprising that ended the rule of former president Viktor Yanukovych, the new authorities in Kyiv inherited an army in a dire state. A 2012 newspaper headline summarized the consensus view of Yanukovych’s plans for radical cuts to the army by saying, “Ukrainian army reform [means] capitulation to Russia.”

In 2014, Chief of the General Staff Viktor Muzhenko described the situation as “an army literally in ruins, Russian generals at the head of [Ukraine’s] armed forces and security agencies, total demoralization [in the armed forces] - those were basically the conditions under which Ukraine met Russia’s aggression.” This miserable state of affairs was confirmed when around 70 percent of the Ukrainian forces stationed in Crimea swore allegiance to Moscow following Russia’s annexation of the peninsula.

The problems go back to the first years of independence after 1991. Muzhenko argued that under every president and government, the Ukrainian army had been funded at—at most—only half of the minimum requirements, which had “in effect led to the loss of combat readiness in the armed forces.” He said that 75 percent of all equipment being used by the armed forces was more than twenty years old and had grown technologically and physically obsolete.

After Russia’s rapid seizure of Crimea, the next challenge in the spring of 2014 was the gradual escalation of hostilities in eastern Ukraine. The number of well-trained professionals available was alarmingly small. The government in Kyiv at least had more time to adapt, using the window provided by the first Minsk ceasefire in September 2014 to recruit more personnel to Ukraine’s armed forces and national guard. Partial mobilization, carried out in three waves in 2014 and three more by August 2015, was the main source of manpower. In total, more than 100,000 personnel were mobilized. Conscription was also reinstated, with the term of service set at eighteen months.

Ukraine suffered heavy losses, both civilian and military, in the conflict. According to international figures, the overall death toll passed 10,000 in 2017. The General Staff’s official data on Ukraine’s military losses is a combined total of 10,710, including 2,333 killed and 8,377 injured. Other sources give much higher figures.

Ukraine’s Toughest Fight: The Challenge of Military Reform - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

[tsupermario]

my point is the minsk agreement was used to fool russia

so how can there be negotiations to end this war if russia can no longer make agreements with the west

minsk agreement was used by russia to fool ukraine and the west

minsk agreement -> russia agrees to respect territorial integrity of ukraine

putin -> recognize independence of separatists states = no more minsk

crimea -> biggest land grab in europe since WW II

Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, and Zaporizhzhia -> annexed by russia, bigger than crimea

[tsupermario]

can russia trust the west again?

From 'Not Us' To 'Why Hide It?': How Russia Denied Its Crimea Invasion, Then Admitted It

February 26, 2019 17:00 GMT

Days later, during his first public comments on the events in Crimea, Russian President Vladimir Putin was asked directly whether Russian troops were blockading Ukrainian soldiers inside their bases on the peninsula.

Despite the clear evidence of Russian soldiers' role in these blockades over the previous days, Putin replied: "Those were local self-defense units." 

The Bloomberg reporter who asked the question noted that the armed men wore "uniforms strongly resembling Russian Army uniforms."

Putin responded: "Take a look at the post-Soviet states. There are many uniforms there that are similar. You can go to a store and buy any kind of uniform."

The same day, Ukrainian journalists published a video on YouTube in which one of several commandos deployed in Crimea said of himself and his colleagues: "We're Russians." 

Asked about videos in which the armed men in Crimea say they are Russian, Putin's defense minister, Sergei Shoigu, said: "It's complete nonsense," Russia's state-run news agency RIA Novosti reported at the time. Asked whether the men in unmarked uniforms in Crimea were Russian, Shoigu added, "Absolutely [not], are you kidding?" Russia’s state-run TASS news agency reported.
…

After weeks of denials, Russia gradually changed its tune following a March 16, 2014, secessionist referendum in Crimea that paved the way for Moscow's formal annexation of the peninsula two days later. The referendum was rejected as illegitimate by 100 members of the UN General Assembly.

Speaking to the BBC the day the annexation treaty was signed, Putin's spokesman still insisted that "servicemen from self-defense regiments of Crimea" were blocking "some" Ukrainian soldiers from leaving their posts. He appeared to concede that at least some Russian soldiers controlled the ground in Crimea, including the borders between the peninsula and the rest of Ukraine.

"It’s not all Russian forces. There are Russian forces that are increasing the security level for [the] Russian naval base. And from now on, I don’t know, because from now on, from today, starting from today, Crimea has joined the Russian Federation. And now, the situation is different there," Peskov said. 

Addressing senior security officials at the Kremlin 10 days later, Putin praised both the Black Sea Fleet "and other units stationed in Crimea" for avoiding bloodshed and ensuring "the referendum took place in a peaceful and free manner."

The following month, Putin said for the first time publicly that Russian troops were active on the peninsula ahead of the referendum -- though he suggested they were there only to provide backup for the locals.
…

Nearly a year after the annexation, Russia finally dropped all pretenses that its military wasn't involved in the seizure of Crimea. In a March 2015 documentary aired on state television, Putin said he told top security officials of his intent to take Crimea shortly after Yanukovych abandoned power.

"I said that the situation in Ukraine has unfolded in such a way that we are forced to begin the work of returning Crimea to Russia," Putin said in the documentary.
…

Putin had a high-profile opportunity to explain his turnaround regarding the identity of the armed men operating in Crimea.

In a testy interview with Putin last year, Austrian journalist Armin Wolf pressed the Russian president repeatedly on the "little green men" and Moscow's military activities in Crimea ahead of the annexation, though Putin sidestepped the issue of his contradictory statements.

Instead he denounced what he called an "armed coup d'etat" in Kyiv, saying that "our armed forces" allowed "the free expression of the will of the people living in Crimea." He also repeated his earlier assertion that Russia did not exceed its permitted troop levels under the bilateral agreement with Kyiv. 

At one point during the exchange, Wolf told Putin: "You later admitted that the Russian military was in Crimea, even though you had previously denied it."

Putin replied: "I did not deny anything. The Russian Army was always there."

From 'Not Us' To 'Why Hide It?': How Russia Denied Its Crimea Invasion, Then Admitted It

[uls]

^^^

are you a paid pro-west troll?