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  1. Join Date
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    #31
    Like the flat earth phenomena... people who believe the world is flat find it hard to accept that the world is round.

    People who have been indoctrinated by the Roman Catholic Church since childhood will find it hard to accept "new" stuff like Judas NOT being a traitor.

    The indoctrination is amazing. it has a very effective defense mechanism. If a believer starts entertaining ideas that run counter to the teachings, a voice inside him goes "sige ka, masusunog kaluluwa mo sa impyerno!"

    The believer gets straightened out again almost instantly.

    Thats why it not easy to make a "believer" grasp new ideas.

  2. Join Date
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    #32
    Talk about anti-Semetism...

    The Vatican was totally silent when Hitler was exterminating Jews in WW2.

  3. Join Date
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by niky
    P're... don't do things like that... ...baka seryosohin ka nang tao!

    Some facts as stated in the National Geographic Special

    The sole existing copy of the "Gospel of Judas" dates from around the 3rd-4th Century, but from Church letters and writings, it apparently existed as early as the 2nd Century.

    The four Gospels included in the Bible are only four of about thirty different Gospels that existed during the early years of Christianity. Most of these Gospels had conflicting views on Jesus and the faith, and early Church leaders picked the four currently accepted Gospels as being most representative of the Church and faith.

    The so-called Gnostic Gospels, which includes Thomas, Mary Magdalene and Judas, were preferred by the so-called Gnostic Christians, who were very introspective and contemplative. They focused more on the mysteries of Jesus and the philosophical/theological questions of his teachings.

    The early Church branded the "Gnostics" as heretics because their inward and meditative nature was contrary to the needs of the early Church for control and power over all Christians. In other words, these Gospels were excluded for mostly political reasons. And many of them were too theologically complex for popular consumption, anyway.

    The Gospel of Judas is seen by experts not as a firsthand account, but more of a philosophical discussion of the nature of Jesus' betrayal... if it was foreordained by Jesus, then, is it not a holy thing to aid him in vesting himself of his material body?

    Of the four Gospels, of note, it is only in the ones which were written later where Judas is portrayed as a villain. The earliest Gospel (Mark, I think) does not portray him as a villain and actually has some parallels with the Gospel of Judas... interesting, eh?

    In later Gospels, they focused more and more on Judas, turning him into a villain... in fact, giving him qualities that people use to stereotype Jews (greedy, money-loving, etc.). They also espoused the message that Jesus was betrayed by the Jews, when in fact, he was tried and killed by the Romans. This is because of the increasingly anti-Semitic/Jewish nature of the emerging Catholic Church. This anti-Semitic nature was reinforced by the Jews' criticism of the Catholics for accepting Gentiles (non-Jews) into the Judaic faith. This is also one of the reasons why Rome became Catholic in later years. Don't you ever wonder why Pontius Pilate is not portrayed as a villain, when Jesus' execution was his decision? Very political indeed.

    It was a very very interesting show. Most of the experts involved are actually true believers or of the faith. Obviously, to be an expert at this, one has to be very interested in the history and theology of Christianity. At no time was the Gospel of Judas presented as "Gospel truth", either.

    -----

    If this is ever replayed, I suggest any good Christian has it as their duty to watch this.

    Watch it with an open mind. Don't shout "heresy!" as soon as you see something you don't believe. Remember, the Bible and its teachings were collated and edited by political leaders within the Church centuries after Jesus' time... there are absolutely no firsthand accounts of Jesus in the Bible as even the Four Gospels were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... but were written in their names, just like the "Gospel of Judas" was not written by Judas himself.
    hehehe. gnostic or not, the writers of the gospel must have some first hand experience with the Christ. and sino pa ba yun mga yun kung hindi mga apostles. that's why individual interpretation ang mga gospels according to how each of the apostles witnessed and viewed it. similar events that were described differently.

    for example, Matthew states that Judas hanged himself.
    but Luke in Acts, states that Judas on the process of hanging himself instead fell to the ground and died.


    since the gospels are all about reflection, the gospel of Judas portrays a disturbing thought but if you will reflect on it, tama nga.

    remember when Jesus fell while carrying the cross, and there were these women who wiped his face clean and were crying. Jesus simply told them that they need not worry bec. he was the son of God. even by then Jesus is unfazed by the hostilities done upon him, why bec. he is a divine person.

    same thing with the Judas kiss, he believed in Christ and he was confident that Christ can surpass such hostility that's why he never denied him and instead played along. Although the thirty pieces of silver suggests him being a traitor among the other 11. he still believed in what his master asked of him during those Passover days. para nga naman maging kapani-paniwala sa mga Pharisees/Priests of that time that he profited from Christ's arrest. Ganun kasi maniwala ang tao noon, even today ganun pa din naman.

  4. Join Date
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    #34
    THE GOSPEL OF JUDAS
    Translated by
    Rodolphe Kasser, Marvin Meyer, and Gregor Wurst,
    in collaboration with François Gaudard
    From The Gospel of Judas
    Edited by Rodolphe Kasser, Marvin Meyer, and Gregor Wurst
    Published in book form complete with commentary by The National Geographic
    Society.
    Copyright (c) 2006 by The National Geographic Society.
    All rights reserved. No part of this translation may be reproduced or
    transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical,
    including photocopying, without permission in writing from the National
    Geographic Society.


    INTRODUCTION: INCIPIT
    The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot
    during a week three days before he celebrated Passover.

    THE EARTHLY MINISTRY OF JESUS
    When Jesus appeared on earth, he performed miracles and great wonders for the salvation
    of humanity. And since some [walked] in the way of righteousness while others walked
    in their transgressions, the twelve disciples were called.
    He began to speak with them about the mysteries beyond the world and what would
    take place at the end. Often he did not appear to his disciples as himself, but he was found
    among them as a child.

    SCENE 1: Jesus dialogues with his disciples: The prayer of thanksgiving or the eucharist
    One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and
    seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples, [34] gathered together
    and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed.
    The disciples said to [him], “Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of
    thanksgiving? We have done what is right.”
    He answered and said to them, “I am not laughing at you. <You> are not doing this
    because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised.”
    They said, “Master, you are […] the son of our god.”
    Jesus said to them, “How do you know me? Truly [I] say to you, no generation of the
    people that are among you will know me.”

    THE DISCIPLES BECOME ANGRY
    When his disciples heard this, they started getting angry and infuriated and began
    blaspheming against him in their hearts.
    When Jesus observed their lack of [understanding, he said] to them, “Why has this
    agitation led you to anger? Your god who is within you and […] [35] have provoked you
    to anger [within] your souls. [Let] any one of you who is [strong enough] among human
    beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face.”
    They all said, “We have the strength.”
    But their spirits did not dare to stand before [him], except for Judas Iscariot. He was
    able to stand before him, but he could not look him in the eyes, and he turned his face
    away.
    Judas [said] to him, “I know who you are and where you have come from. You are
    from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one
    who has sent you.”

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    #35
    JESUS SPEAKS TO JUDAS PRIVATELY
    Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him,
    “Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is
    possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. [36] For someone else will
    replace you, in order that the twelve [disciples] may again come to completion with their
    god.”
    Judas said to him, “When will you tell me these things, and [when] will the great day
    of light dawn for the generation?”
    But when he said this, Jesus left him.

    SCENE 2: Jesus appears to the disciples again
    The next morning, after this happened, Jesus [appeared] to his disciples again.
    They said to him, “Master, where did you go and what did you do when you left us?”
    Jesus said to them, “I went to another great and holy generation.”
    His disciples said to him, “Lord, what is the great generation that is superior to us and
    holier than us, that is not now in these realms?”
    When Jesus heard this, he laughed and said to them, “Why are you thinking in your
    hearts about the strong and holy generation? [37] Truly [I] say to you, no one born [of]
    this aeon will see that [generation], and no host of angels of the stars will rule over that
    generation, and no person of mortal birth can associate with it, because that generation
    does not come from […] which has become […]. The generation of people among [you]
    is from the generation of humanity […] power, which [… the] other powers […] by
    [which] you rule.”
    When [his] disciples heard this, they each were troubled in spirit. They could not say a
    word.
    Another day Jesus came up to [them]. They said to [him], “Master, we have seen you
    in a [vision], for we have had great [dreams …] night […].”
    [He said], “Why have [you … when] <you> have gone into hiding?” [38]

    THE DISCIPLES SEE THE TEMPLE AND DISCUSS IT
    They [said, “We have seen] a great [house with a large] altar [in it, and] twelve
    men—they are the priests, we would say—and a name; and a crowd of people is waiting
    at that altar, [until] the priests [… and receive] the offerings. [But] we kept waiting.”
    [Jesus said], “What are [the priests] like?”
    They [said, “Some …] two weeks; [some] sacrifice their own children, others their
    wives, in praise [and] humility with each other; some sleep with men; some are involved
    in [slaughter]; some commit a multitude of sins and deeds of lawlessness. And the men
    who stand [before] the altar invoke your [name], [39] and in all the deeds of their
    deficiency, the sacrifices are brought to completion […].”
    After they said this, they were quiet, for they were troubled.

  6. Join Date
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    #36
    JESUS OFFERS AN ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION OF THE VISION OF THE TEMPLE
    Jesus said to them, “Why are you troubled? Truly I say to you, all the priests who stand
    before that altar invoke my name. Again I say to you, my name has been written on this
    […] of the generations of the stars through the human generations. [And they] have
    planted trees without fruit, in my name, in a shameful manner.”
    Jesus said to them, “Those you have seen receiving the offerings at the altar—that is
    who you are. That is the god you serve, and you are those twelve men you have seen. The
    cattle you have seen brought for sacrifice are the many people you lead astray [40] before
    that altar. […] will stand and make use of my name in this way, and generations of the
    pious will remain loyal to him. After hi another man will stand there from [the
    fornicators], and another [will] stand there from the slayers of children, and another from
    those who sleep with men, and those who abstain, and the rest of the people of pollution
    and lawlessness and error, and those who say, ‘We are like angels’; they are the stars that
    bring everything to its conclusion. For to the human generations it has been said, ‘Look,
    God has received your sacrifice from the hands of a priest’—that is, a minister of error.
    But it is the Lord, the Lord of the universe, who commands, ‘On the last day they will be
    put to shame.’” [41]
    Jesus said [to them], “Stop sac[rificing …] which you have […] over the altar, since
    they are over your stars and your angels and have already come to their conclusion there.
    So let them be [ensnared] before you, and let them go [—about 15 lines missing—]
    generations […]. A baker cannot feed all creation [42] under [heaven]. And […] to them
    […] and […] to us and […].
    Jesus said to them, “Stop struggling with me. Each of you has his own star, and
    every[body—about 17 lines missing—] [43] in […] who has come [… spring] for the tree
    […] of this aeon […] for a time […] but he has come to water God’s paradise, and the
    [generation] that will last, because [he] will not defile the [walk of life of] that
    generation, but […] for all eternity.”

    JUDAS ASKS JESUS ABOUT THAT GENERATION AND HUMAN GENERATIONS
    Judas said to [him, “Rabb]i, what kind of fruit does this generation produce?”
    Jesus said, “The souls of every human generation will die. When these people,
    however, have completed the time of the kingdom and the spirit leaves them, their bodies
    will die but their souls will be alive, and they will be taken up.”
    Judas said, “And what will the rest of the human generations do?”
    Jesus said, “It is impossible [44] to sow seed on [rock] and harvest its fruit. [This] is
    also the way […] the [defiled] generation […] and corruptible Sophia […] the hand that
    has created mortal people, so that their souls go up to the eternal realms above. [Truly] I
    say to you, […] angel […] power will be able to see that […] these to whom […] holy
    generations […].”
    After Jesus said this, he departed.

    SCENE 3: Judas recounts a vision and Jesus responds
    Judas said, “Master, as you have listened to all of them, now also listen to me. For I have
    seen a great vision.”
    When Jesus heard this, he laughed and said to him, “You thirteenth spirit, why do you
    try so hard? But speak up, and I shall bear with you.”
    Judas said to him, “In the vision I saw myself as the twelve disciples were stoning me
    and [45] persecuting [me severely]. And I also came to the place where […] after you. I
    saw [a house …], and my eyes could not [comprehend] its size. Great people were
    surrounding it, and that house <had> a roof of greenery, and in the middle of the house
    was [a crowd—two lines missing—], saying, ‘Master, take me in along with these
    people.’”
    [Jesus] answered and said, “Judas, your star has led you astray.” He continued, “No
    person of mortal birth is worthy to enter the house you have seen, for that place is
    reserved for the holy. Neither the sun nor the moon will rule there, nor the day, but the
    holy will abide there always, in the eternal realm with the holy angels. Look, I have
    explained to you the mysteries of the kingdom [46] and I have taught you about the error
    of the stars; and […] send it […] on the twelve aeons.”

  7. Join Date
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    #37
    JUDAS ASKS ABOUT HIS OWN FATE
    Judas said, “Master, could it be that my seed is under the control of the rulers?”
    Jesus answered and said to him, “Come, that I [—two lines missing—], but that you
    will grieve much when you see the kingdom and all its generation.”
    When he heard this, Judas said to him, “What good is it that I have received it? For
    you have set me apart for that generation.”
    Jesus answered and said, “You will become the thirteenth, and you will be cursed by
    the other generations—and you will come to rule over them. In the last days they will
    curse your ascent [47] to the holy [generation].”

    JESUS TEACHES JUDAS ABOUT COSMOLOGY: THE SPIRIT AND THE SELF-GENERATED
    Jesus said, “[Come], that I may teach you about [secrets] no person [has] ever seen. For
    there exists a great and boundless realm, whose extent no generation of angels has seen,
    [in which] there is [a] great invisible [Spirit],
    which no eye of an angel has ever seen,
    no thought of the heart has ever comprehended,
    and it was never called by any name.
    “And a luminous cloud appeared there. He said, ‘Let an angel come into being as my
    attendant.’
    “A great angel, the enlightened divine Self-Generated, emerged from the cloud.
    Because of him, four other angels came into being from another cloud, and they became
    attendants for the angelic Self-Generated. The Self-Generated said, [48] ‘Let […] come
    into being […],’ and it came into being […]. And he [created] the first luminary to reign
    over him. He said, ‘Let angels come into being to serve [him],’ and myriads without
    number came into being. He said, ‘[Let] an enlightened aeon come into being,’ and he
    came into being. He created the second luminary [to] reign over him, together with
    myriads of angels without number, to offer service. That is how he created the rest of the
    enlightened aeons. He made them reign over them, and he created for them myriads of
    angels without number, to assist them.

    ADAMAS AND THE LUMINARIES
    “Adamas was in the first luminous cloud that no angel has ever seen among all those
    called ‘God.’ He [49] […] that […] the image […] and after the likeness of [this] angel.
    He made the incorruptible [generation] of Seth appear […] the twelve […] the twentyfour
    […]. He made seventy-two luminaries appear in the incorruptible generation, in
    accordance with the will of the Spirit. The seventy-two luminaries themselves made three
    hundred sixty luminaries appear in the incorruptible generation, in accordance with the
    will of the Spirit, that their number should be five for each.
    “The twelve aeons of the twelve luminaries constitute their father, with six heavens for
    each aeon, so that there are seventy-two heavens for the seventy-two luminaries, and for
    each [50] [of them five] firmaments, [for a total of] three hundred sixty [firmaments …].
    They were given authority and a [great] host of angels [without number], for glory and
    adoration, [and after that also] virgin spirits, for glory and [adoration] of all the aeons and
    the heavens and their firmaments.

    THE COSMOS, CHAOS, AND THE UNDERWORLD
    “The multitude of those immortals is called the cosmos— that is, perdition—by the
    Father and the seventy-two luminaries who are with the Self-Generated and his seventytwo
    aeons. In him the first human appeared with his incorruptible powers. And the aeon
    that appeared with his generation, the aeon in whom are the cloud of knowledge and the
    angel, is called [51] El. […] aeon […] after that […] said, ‘Let twelve angels come into
    being [to] rule over chaos and the [underworld].’ And look, from the cloud there
    appeared an [angel] whose face flashed with fire and whose appearance was defiled with
    blood. His name was Nebro, which means ‘rebel’; others call him Yaldabaoth. Another
    angel, Saklas, also came from the cloud. So Nebro created six angels—as well as
    Saklas—to be assistants, and these produced twelve angels in the heavens, with each one
    receiving a portion in the heavens.

    THE RULERS AND ANGELS
    “The twelve rulers spoke with the twelve angels: ‘Let each of you [52] […] and let them
    […] generation [—one line lost—] angels’:
    The first is [S]eth, who is called Christ.
    The [second] is Harmathoth, who is […].
    The [third] is Galila.
    The fourth is Yobel.
    The fifth [is] Adonaios.
    These are the five who ruled over the underworld, and first of all over chaos.

    THE CREATION OF HUMANITY
    “Then Saklas said to his angels, ‘Let us create a human being after the likeness and after
    the image.’ They fashioned Adam and his wife Eve, who is called, in the cloud, Zoe. For
    by this name all the generations seek the man, and each of them calls the woman by these
    names. Now, Sakla did not [53] com[mand …] except […] the gene[rations …] this […].
    And the [ruler] said to Adam, ‘You shall live long, with your children.’”

    JUDAS ASKS ABOUT THE DESTINY OF ADAM AND HUMANITY
    Judas said to Jesus, “[What] is the long duration of time that the human being will live?”
    Jesus said, “Why are you wondering about this, that Adam, with his generation, has
    lived his span of life in the place where he has received his kingdom, with longevity with
    his ruler?”
    Judas said to Jesus, “Does the human spirit die?”
    Jesus said, “This is why God ordered Michael to give the spirits of people to them as a
    loan, so that they might offer service, but the Great One ordered Gabriel to grant spirits to
    the great generation with no ruler over it—that is, the spirit and the soul. Therefore, the
    [rest] of the souls [54] [—one line missing—].

    JESUS DISCUSSES THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED WITH JUDAS AND OTHERS
    “[…] light [—nearly two lines missing—] around […] let […] spirit [that is] within you
    dwell in this [flesh] among the generations of angels. But God caused knowledge to be
    [given] to Adam and those with him, so that the kings of chaos and the underworld might
    not lord it over them.”
    Judas said to Jesus, “So what will those generations do?”
    Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, for all of them the stars bring matters to completion.
    When Saklas completes the span of time assigned for him, their first star will appear with
    the generations, and they will finish what they said they would do. Then they will
    fornicate in my name and slay their children [55] and they will […] and [—about six and
    a half lines missing—] my name, and he will […] your star over the [thir]teenth aeon.”
    After that Jesus [laughed].
    [Judas said], “Master, [why are you laughing at us]?”
    [Jesus] answered [and said], “I am not laughing [at you] but at the error of the stars,
    because these six stars wander about with these five combatants, and they all will be
    destroyed along with their creatures.”

    JESUS SPEAKS OF THOSE WHO ARE BAPTIZED, AND JUDAS’S BETRAYAL
    Judas said to Jesus, “Look, what will those who have been baptized in your name do?”
    Jesus said, “Truly I say [to you], this baptism [56] […] my name [—about nine lines
    missing—] to me. Truly [I] say to you, Judas, [those who] offer sacrifices to Saklas […]
    God [—three lines missing—] everything that is evil.
    “But you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.
    Already your horn has been raised,
    your wrath has been kindled,
    your star has shown brightly,
    and your heart has […]. [57]
    “Truly […] your last […] become [—about two and a half lines missing—], grieve
    [—about two lines missing—] the ruler, since he will be destroyed. And then the image
    of the great generation of Adam will be exalted, for prior to heaven, earth, and the angels,
    that generation, which is from the eternal realms, exists. Look, you have been told
    everything. Lift up your eyes and look at the cloud and the light within it and the stars
    surrounding it. The star that leads the way is your star.”
    Judas lifted up his eyes and saw the luminous cloud, and he entered it. Those standing
    on the ground heard a voice coming from the cloud, saying, [58] […] great generation
    […] … image […] [—about five lines missing—].

    CONCLUSION: JUDAS BETRAYS JESUS
    […] Their high priests murmured because [he] had gone into the guest room for his
    prayer. But some scribes were there watching carefully in order to arrest him during the
    prayer, for they were afraid of the people, since he was regarded by all as a prophet.
    They approached Judas and said to him, “What are you doing here? You are Jesus’
    disciple.”
    Judas answered them as they wished. And he received some money and handed him over
    to them.

    End....

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    #38
    well this is at least from what National Geographic has translated. maraming kulang na lines but it's worth reading it.

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    #39
    It's on TV now.

    http://docotep.multiply.com/
    Need an Ambulance? We sell Zic Brand Oils and Lubricants. Please PM me.

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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by oldblue
    in the gospel of judas, jesus considered judas the most important among his disciples. and after reading some parts of the gospel, I'm beginning to think he is. the other 11 simply fell silent when asked who Jesus was in the garden of Gethsamane.

    what does this imply? that they are not entirely sure also who their master was. if they really had the best in faith with Jesus, then they're confident that Jesus can surpass that obstacle, given that he was a divine person. in fact it was Peter who committed the greater sin bec. he denied Jesus, hence had little faith with Jesus.

    huh? kahit ako sa ngayon magdalawang isip kung ituturo ko ba ang kaibigan/kamag-anak kung alam ko na huhulihin ng pulis

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Gospel of Judas