To honda philippines: Dapat brio and jazz 1.5 manual dinala nyo. Lalangawin odyssey

**LNopal** · June 25th, 2012 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Helios

no, really, honda's current design acumen's turned dull accdg to its founder

car uk new: Honda Commits to Finding it's Way Back to Roots

'Honda, many say, slipped into designing cars by committee in recent years and drifted away from the iconoclastic ambitions of its founder. Honda had become boring.
"Somewhere along the way, we lost the ability to express ourselves more freely," Asahi said. "We have a lot of designers here, and when we ask ourselves, 'Which Honda car would we want to buy?' sometimes some of us draw a blank."

german car design or european styling for that matter has always been timeless and should be innovative without destroying its classic marque

see those happy expressions covering the front of most cars coming from asia? they're suppose to be emotional and should change over a short period of time. no longevity to it. people expect to see something different, another emotional burst, otherwise we call it a 'botox' styling -a design deja vu

we pay top dollar so we deserve more. hear that honda!

Missing something, Helios? Read the entire statement not just the last sentence you highlighted.

If you are refering to the design of civic, it's an econo car not a luxcar. If you paid too much for it, then someone may have punked you. Modesty aside, i have never paid sticker price, always below invoice price because i did my research.

**niky** · June 25th, 2012 09:38 PM

Again. Not applicable to local conditions. Prices here are pretty much set by the head office, and discounts are standard across the board, with only a little wriggle room (about a few hundred dollars either way) for consumers.

And, even then, you can get even bigger discounts on other marquees.

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Honda has really lost its way in terms of design. When they take risks, they take outlandish risks that border on the hideous (Crosstour), when they don't, they're so conservative that it hurts their image.

Granted, Honda has never been about style, and yes, there are nice touches here and there when you look at the design up close... but a lot of manufacturers have subtle design cues and aero-styling built in, so Honda is doing nothing really to distance itself from the pack.

The fact that they felt the need to rush a redesign for the Civic into production reflects the desperation at Honda to recapture that spark. But merely talking about it and shuffling people around will not do that. What they need is fresh blood in the organization that's willing to think outside the box. Bring in their own Peter Schreyer (though I think the new Kia design language will look dated down the road, it's sales NOW that count) or James May. Create a design direction that's more than just some idiotic grille (Acura) or lines-upon-lines. When the first-generation Jazz and FD Civic came out, they were fantastic. Even the current Accord looked pretty good when it first launched. Honda just has to learn how to keep momentum and how to tell what works from what doesn't.

**LNopal** · June 26th, 2012 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by niky

Again. Not applicable to local conditions. Prices here are pretty much set by the head office, and discounts are standard across the board, with only a little wriggle room (about a few hundred dollars either way) for consumers.

And, even then, you can get even bigger discounts on other marquees.

-

Honda has really lost its way in terms of design. When they take risks, they take outlandish risks that border on the hideous (Crosstour), when they don't, they're so conservative that it hurts their image.

Granted, Honda has never been about style, and yes, there are nice touches here and there when you look at the design up close... but a lot of manufacturers have subtle design cues and aero-styling built in, so Honda is doing nothing really to distance itself from the pack.

The fact that they felt the need to rush a redesign for the Civic into production reflects the desperation at Honda to recapture that spark. But merely talking about it and shuffling people around will not do that. What they need is fresh blood in the organization that's willing to think outside the box. Bring in their own Peter Schreyer (though I think the new Kia design language will look dated down the road, it's sales NOW that count) or James May. Create a design direction that's more than just some idiotic grille (Acura) or lines-upon-lines. When the first-generation Jazz and FD Civic came out, they were fantastic. Even the current Accord looked pretty good when it first launched. Honda just has to learn how to keep momentum and how to tell what works from what doesn't.

Ofcourse, it is not applicable in the philippines because it uses peso not dollars. Helios paid top dollars for the car. Also, 99% of the consumers in the philippines never heard of invoice price, so what is there to apply for?

With regards to your comment about designs, if you read my initial response to helios and digest what i wrote, you will not be writing about honda's exterior design. For the civic's rushed mmc, is it really about the exterior or the plasticky interior and poor handling? The latest spy pix is suggesting more of the interior changes. Moreover, it is good that honda is acting immediately to resolve the flaws. It is more unfavorable for the consumers if they act as if there's nothing wrong with the car and act arrogantly about it.

How about acura's beak? if you own it and can't go beyond it, then sell it. Or do you own any? Or have you test drove any? If not, i will suggest to drive the models that has sh-awd feature. Drive it in a curvy curvy road. Never mind the interior of the car nor the tech package or advance package.

Crosstour, i cannot talk about it, i don't own one.

**niky** · June 26th, 2012 09:33 PM

The number one job of any car company is to get butts into the car. Something Acura has not been able to do as well as Lexus, no matter how much better their sedans have been to drive. Blame bland to outlandish designs. Blame customer obsession with the "pretige" of rear wheel drive. Blame poor marketing. Fact is, Acura isn't as competitive as it should be given how good their cars are.

Fixing the car after the fact represents a fundamental failure in product testing and development and again, a lack of focus. Not someing unique to Honda, but disappointing. If you think I'm being critical merely to be critical, I suggest you read my drive review of the Civic at kotse.com. I think it's a fundamentally good car... I actually like it and believe much of the criticism is undeserved. But what I personally feel about the vehicle doesn't change market realities, which are that Honda may be selling decently enough, but they're underperforming in sales (compared to pre-carmageddon Honda) despite having good products, and the Civic is a step backwards in many ways.

Does Honda need a total redesign for poor handling and a plasticky interior? Obviously not. Handling is simply a matter of EPS recalibration and adjusting front suspension geometry... Something Honda has done for e CRV (about two years ago) and which they did for the MMC Fit/Jazz with a simple anti-roll bar tweak. The interior bits can use the same molds, all they need to do is spend more on the trim.

So why redesign? Simple. Market perception. The market thinks Honda has lost the plot, so they're doing this just to assure people they haven't.

You don't have to defend Honda when even they admit there's something wrong. Speaking as a Honda fan and owner, I feel bad about the situation... Especially since I think the Jazz/Fit is the most revolutionary car of this century and that Honda still has the best naturally aspirated engines and chassis packaging anywhere... But in order to regain market shares and capture new customers (not just people like us upgrading from the previous model...), they really need a drastic overhaul in product planning.

**LNopal** · June 26th, 2012 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by niky

The number one job of any car company is to get butts into the car. Something Acura has not been able to do as well as Lexus, no matter how much better their sedans have been to drive. Blame bland to outlandish designs. Blame customer obsession with the "pretige" of rear wheel drive. Blame poor marketing. Fact is, Acura isn't as competitive as it should be given how good their cars are.

Fixing the car after the fact represents a fundamental failure in product testing and development and again, a lack of focus. Not someing unique to Honda, but disappointing. If you think I'm being critical merely to be critical, I suggest you read my drive review of the Civic at kotse.com. I think it's a fundamentally good car... I actually like it and believe much of the criticism is undeserved. But what I personally feel about the vehicle doesn't change market realities, which are that Honda may be selling decently enough, but they're underperforming in sales (compared to pre-carmageddon Honda) despite having good products, and the Civic is a step backwards in many ways.

Does Honda need a total redesign for poor handling and a plasticky interior? Obviously not. Handling is simply a matter of EPS recalibration and adjusting front suspension geometry... Something Honda has done for e CRV (about two years ago) and which they did for the MMC Fit/Jazz with a simple anti-roll bar tweak. The interior bits can use the same molds, all they need to do is spend more on the trim.

So why redesign? Simple. Market perception. The market thinks Honda has lost the plot, so they're doing this just to assure people they haven't.

You don't have to defend Honda when even they admit there's something wrong. Speaking as a Honda fan and owner, I feel bad about the situation... Especially since I think the Jazz/Fit is the most revolutionary car of this century and that Honda still has the best naturally aspirated engines and chassis packaging anywhere... But in order to regain market shares and capture new customers (not just people like us upgrading from the previous model...), they really need a drastic overhaul in product planning.

No, i'm not defending honda at all. I am just amused with the comments in this forum that they think they know the cars but the have not even test driven them, moreso own any. I only speak of my experience, as an owner and as an enthusiast.

I will try to add more to your comments the soonest i get another down time.

Cheers.

**tomboy** · June 26th, 2012 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by niky

Especially since I think the Jazz/Fit is the most revolutionary car of this century and that Honda still has the best naturally aspirated engines and chassis packaging anywhere...

Wala ako jazz pero agree ako dito. Nagbago tingin ko sa subcompact car.

**niky** · June 27th, 2012 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by LNopal

No, i'm not defending honda at all. I am just amused with the comments in this forum that they think they know the cars but the have not even test driven them, moreso own any. I only speak of my experience, as an owner and as an enthusiast.

I will try to add more to your comments the soonest i get another down time.

Cheers.

It was a favorite comment of a friend that you should not judge a car unless you have driven it. That much is true. It's laughable when people talk about cars like a Nissan GT-R or McLaren MP412C being boring to drive when they haven't ever gotten into a car with more than 300 horsepower.

BUT:

We are talking about marketing here. In marketing, perception is everything. This is why we say: "Once you've gotten the customer into the car (for a test drive), your job is halfway done, already." Because if the product is good, it'll sell itself. Doesn't matter if it's a gas guzzler (K20 CR-V) or if the seats are hard as rocks (FD Civic) or if it rides like a skateboard on caffeine (S2k)... new car smell... sells.

But first you have to get the customer interested enough to get in the car. And what people say here, even those who have not driven the car, matters, in that respect... because the opinions they're giving are the opinions of buyers who are not even considering a Honda at the moment.

**LNopal** · June 28th, 2012 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by niky

It was a favorite comment of a friend that you should not judge a car unless you have driven it. That much is true. It's laughable when people talk about cars like a Nissan GT-R or McLaren MP412C being boring to drive when they haven't ever gotten into a car with more than 300 horsepower.

BUT:

We are talking about marketing here. In marketing, perception is everything. This is why we say: "Once you've gotten the customer into the car (for a test drive), your job is halfway done, already." Because if the product is good, it'll sell itself. Doesn't matter if it's a gas guzzler (K20 CR-V) or if the seats are hard as rocks (FD Civic) or if it rides like a skateboard on caffeine (S2k)... new car smell... sells.

But first you have to get the customer interested enough to get in the car. And what people say here, even those who have not driven the car, matters, in that respect... because the opinions they're giving are the opinions of buyers who are not even considering a Honda at the moment.

probably marketing plays a big part especially in the philippines. what i noticed in this site, in general, people asks what car to buy and i feel that they play it by the ears when choosing which car to buy. it's a big expense, and it's not even an asset since it depreciates and you spend money to fill gas and maintain the car. whatever happened to research? instead, you will see posts like help me decide which car to buy? heck, the guy is letting other people to decide for him. i guess it's either they just want to tell the world that they are buying a car or simply plain bonehead?

when i bought my first honda, i wasn't even considering the manufacturer. i was looking at bmw, toyota, and subaru. but after all the research, i was compelled to try out the civic. it fits my budget and it's in the middle of everything. after owning it, the research proved to be correct and i was a very happy car owner. it was giving me 40+ mpg which is almost in the hybrid territory several years back. if i have not done my research myself, i wouldn't have stumbled upon this vehicle. that's why i am so up high with honda. moreover, the car measured the distance of the moon w/o any issue.

going back to your comment about the lack of focus; i cannot say that about honda because i am not part of that company. i'm an outsider looking in. during the development of the new civic, rumors were flying left and right, most of them turned out to be true. but that's another story; it will oppose your opinion that they are not focused. one thing that i was expecting you to say is, honda became so obsessed with earth dream that they are in the business of producing fuel sipping cars that they forgot where they started -- produce small cars that are fun to drive. hence the disappointment from enthusiasts. compounding the trouble, the interior of the 9th gen civic felt plasticky which turned off the consumer report magazine. adding to the misery, the flood in thailand caused the car manufacturers to slow down (toyota, honda, and other american car manufacturers were affected). however, when the parts became available, the much shamed civic was back on top in sales figures taking back its place -- that w/o the mmc in place yet. it's a head scratcher, but it is what it is.

with regards to your comments about acura, it no longer produces a rwd after they discontinued the production of nsx. what they have is the sh-awd. trust me, it is fun to drive the vehicles with this feature. the sales, it may not be as popular as lexus, but they are selling pretty well. search the may 2012 figures, you will see the sales comparison with lexus'. what i can say about lexus, especially the RX300, it's a good car, but not my type. My sister owns one. too comfortable for my taste, i feel i'm an old man driving it. compared with my rdx, it drives with gusto. too bad, acura removed the turbo and sh-awd and replaced it with v6 realtime awd.

what excites me about acura is the ilx, can i say the sibling of civic? check it out. also, the irl, which replaces the current rl, will have a hybrid technology which will produce 30mpg across the board, the same tech that will be applied for next year's release of mdx and (the return of) nsx. definitely, mdx is on my sight right now.

**niky** · June 28th, 2012 09:34 PM

I agree that people should do their own research... but it's very difficult, because searching online, owners' groups and the like have their own biases and idiosyncrasies... heck... even Consumer Reports, despite the excellent job they do of reviewing and gathering data otherwise, is not immune to inaccuracy due to the way they collect owner data (brake dust is actually rated as a "problem" on par with others, when it really isn't...). Find the right resources, like TrueDelta.com and WarrantyDirect's survey (which lists actual repairs and not anecdotal "problems"), and you can get a better idea of what to expect.

But most consumers are not smart. Which is why threads like "what to buy" are a good litmus test for market acceptance of a vehicle. More accurate would be focus groups and random interviews and surveys, but one must be careful when selecting respondents. Nissan dropped the ball on this locally when they only included Cefiro customers in their focus groups on what to do with the next Cefiro... while this helped them keep old customers, it did nothing for gaining them new ones.

it will oppose your opinion that they are not focused.

How? Honda prides itself on fuel economy, yet they neglect to go for a six speed automatic like competitors, which could have gained them 4-5 mpg on the EPA test. (not to say economy is bad... having done an eco-run with the FD Civic, I was suitably impressed... but again... marketing and perception). They pride themselves on quality, yet they cheapen their interior materials to a point where they are behind the curve. You won't catch me saying the "Earth Dream" thing was a bad idea. Eco-marketing is a good thing in this day and age. It's just that they didn't do enough to back it up.

A writer on another site blames Honda's use of customer profiling... creating models of their target customers that fall way short of approximating their actual target markets.

Sales of Hondas and Toyotas represent market momentum built up from previous successes. But current mis-steps will make themselves felt down the line in terms of new customers lost.

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As for Acura:

I don't like Lexus, but they've got their market pegged. Acura is nowhere near as strong as Lexus, and won't be challenging BMW or Mercedes for market dominance any time soon.

I don't know how well the hybrid will bolster sales for Acura. Reaction to the CR-Z has not been as good as Honda has hoped (partially because of the disappointing fuel economy), but luxury buyers are more willing to pay the hybrid premium. I'd hope, actually, that Honda introduce the Fit Hybrid outside of Japan, instead, as that's a product that has the potential to really take the fight to the Prius C and Prius.

**OTEP** · June 28th, 2012 10:31 PM

People who ask forums regarding new car purchases are not letting other people decide for them. Its merely a part of doing research.

If people here ask me whats my take on something, ill gladly answer. Manufacturers, shops, ad people dont pay me. I just answer things as how they are.

Heck, even I posted in the firearms forum when it came time for me to purchase a firearm. And the realworld experience of actual owners vs ad propagandas really helped me decide.