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  1. Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,621
    #1
    http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,69529,00.html

    and no, the hydrogen is not stored in a fuel cell, or in a tank. it's GENERATED ON THE FLY using electrolysis.

    and the amounts of hydrogen involved is quite small; the purpose of the hydrogen is to act as a fuel enhancer (since it burns more readily and hotter than diesel or gasoline) to prevent knock and to promote more complete combustion (kinda like what honda's two spark plugs in the 1.3 i-DSI does.. altough in a different way). the more complete combustion also lowers the particulate output.

    granted the device is quite expensive $4000 minimum. but based on the same general principle, what's stopping anyone from constructing their own version? it's moderately within the realm of the doable by the handy DIY'er.


    HFI is a bolt-on, aftermarket part that injects small amounts of hydrogen into the engine air intake, said Canadian Hydrogen Energy's Steve Gilchrist. Fuel efficiency and horsepower are improved because hydrogen burns faster and hotter than diesel, dramatically boosting combustion efficiency.

    "You get more work from the same amount of fuel," said Gilchrist.

    This is not a new idea. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory at the California Institute of Technology published research on the uses of hydrogen as a combustion-enhancing agent in the early 1970s. But the ability to make hydrogen on the go is novel.

    The sticking point for hydrogen has always been getting it. Unlike crude oil, natural gas, wind or solar energy, hydrogen doesn't exist freely in nature. It costs $5 a gallon to make hydrogen from natural gas.

    But the HFI system uses electricity from an engine's alternator to power the electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen as needed from small amounts of distilled water.

    "That's a big advantage and a bit of a novelty," said Venki Raman, an expert on hydrogen-energy applications who started Protium Energy Technologies.

    HFI's manufacturer guarantees 10 percent fuel savings, which likely won't interest car companies or consumers, Raman said. But a reduction of pollution emissions could spur broader use.

    Trucks with the HFI system produce half the amount of particulates -- microscopic, unburned bits of diesel. The system also reduces nitrogen-oxide emissions, which are major contributors to harmful air pollution, by up to 14 percent, according to Canada's Environmental Technology Verification Program.

    The HFI units are relatively small and cost between $4,000 and $14,000, depending on the size of the vehicle.

  2. Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    22,710
    #2
    Hmmm... must research this...

    It wouldn't be difficult to make an electrolysis set-up for a car, the only difficulty is ensuring a steady flow of hydrogen and oxygen from the system, as you wouldn't want spikes in the fuel-air mixture from intermittent injection. There is probably a lot of valving and electronic control in those kits, but I think it would be possible to get the price under 50,000 pesos if one could be developed locally.

    It almost sounds like a crackpot idea, but it's just soooooo..... possible.

    Ang pagbalik ng comeback...

  3. Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,621
    #3
    niky,
    i don't think it's THAT complicated.

    i am assuming that the amount of hydrogen involved is so small that it doesn't really contribute to the energy output of the combustion process. this makes sense because the amount of energy required to generate the hydrogen using electrolysis will ALWAYS be vastly larger than the amount of energy you can recover by combusting that hydrogen.

    notwithstanding Dingle's claims.

    ergo, the hydrogen is being used as a combustion accelerant/enhancer, not as a fuel. my theory is, the actual AMOUNT of hydrogen injected need not be super-precise, since the absolute amount is quite small.

    my idea was just to have an electrolysis cell in the engine compartment, with its output connected to, say, the PCV valve? or perhaps somehow tap it into the IAC valve or somewhere else on the throttle body. so the hydrogen (kind of) "enriches" the intake air. i just don't know exactly how much hydrogen is needed..

    BTW I have an idea how Dingle does his water-powered scam. His claim is that the electrolysis cell of his has a proprietary plate configuration that allows it to extract hydrogen from water very efficiently (in fact, an efficiency exceeding 100%) which is obvious crap.

    BUT... think about this. The "electrolysis cell" is not really an electrolysis cell. Instead, the plates are actually covered with finely-divided nickel. If you force hydrogen gas past a finely-divided metal matrix, the metal particles will BOND a huge amount of hydrogen, forming a hydride.

    so basically the "plates" are just... hydrogen storage units.

    when Dingle applies power to his "electrolysis cell" he's actually HEATING the finely-divided nickel plates using a heater wire embedded in the plate. this heat RELEASES the stored hydrogen. so it looks for all the world like a super-efficient electrolysis cell, when actually it's a hydrogen storage unit...

    but i digress.

  4. Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    11,317
    #4
    scientist ata kayo e :bwahaha:

  5. Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    22,710
    #5
    I've just looked it up...

    The CHEC kit is frigidaire sized. Can't be used in cars. I was partially right about metering being a problem... the actual problem is hydrogen delivery to the combustion chamber... another problem is efficiency. If you take enough electricity out of the alternator to electrolyse enough water to create enough hydrogen to make a difference in combustion, you're actually on the losing end of the economy scale. Apparently, the new systems are more effective. Plus storage of the hydrogen isn't so difficult, since they don't need a high pressure tank or fuel cell matrix. The hydrogen is stored at 22 psi... this probably accounts for part of the bulk of the device, the low storage pressure.

    Another hydrogen injection concern is actually suing CHEC for copyright infringement.

    Back to the drawing board. Although creating an electrolysis device for the car and a storage system for hydrogen wouldn't be difficult, the efficiency increase will likely be minimal or non-existent for a backyard set-up.

    Ang pagbalik ng comeback...

  6. Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    37
    #6
    Lumang invention na pala ito... Someone just approached me today on this, claiming 20 - 40% improvement on fuel economy on my 15 year old car. Same concept, injecting hydrogen into you air intake. The kit's about 10k++. Have there been any recent advancements in this area to make this more feasible & practical to use in your everyday car? I'm interested but if the claims aren't true, I'd rather spend my money somewhere else.
    this area

  7. Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    29,320
    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by euro_c View Post
    Lumang invention na pala ito... Someone just approached me today on this, claiming 20 - 40% improvement on fuel economy on my 15 year old car. Same concept, injecting hydrogen into you air intake. The kit's about 10k++. Have there been any recent advancements in this area to make this more feasible & practical to use in your everyday car? I'm interested but if the claims aren't true, I'd rather spend my money somewhere else.
    this area
    nope, no new advertisements on such...

    You're better off if you convert your 15 year old car to use auto-LPG. A venturi auto-lpg kit costing around 16K to 20K (depending on which company installs it) and will save you 30% to 40% on your fuel bills. Percentage will differ depending on the current price difference of gasoline vs LPG.


    Auto-LPG discussion thread:
    http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29208



    .

  8. Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    446
    #8
    Hydrogen is very expensive to make and too difficult to store.
    I have tried using an electrolysis device based on archie blue's patent. The result is : it can't even start a 4 cylinder 1.o engine.

    After further reading I found out that Mr. Blue uses Al as anode and cathode for his cell. Al easily emits hydrogen gas but Al is decomposed into Alumina in the process. I don't recommend using Al guys, once the Al remnants travels thru your cell it would short out anodes and cathodes producing a big bang. I almost lost my life when my pvc cell exploded, luckily I escaped the explosion with only a few cuts from the shattered pvc cell and a ringing ear which lasted for 1 week. That ended my hydrogen research.


    It is impossible to store a useful amount without expensive equipments or very rare earth metals.

    Please don't pay anyone who offers you a hydrogen generating device, fooling people is an easiest way to earn money.

save 10% on fuel using HYDROGEN