Phil. Diesel -> not CRDi ready?

[patron]

diesoline...thank u very much for the enlightenment, sir! (Just read the post today). It's my first time to have a car with diesel engine kse. It was always been petrol engine. i think i have so much to learn about diesels. Nasa baba na naman ako ng learning curve. Anyway, the advices here are invaluable and more comprehensible than reading technical publications/sources.

[KCboy]

sir diesoline,
what exactly is euro 1,2,3 ,4,5 standard? does this mean na diesels in euro1 standard is much dirtier than euro5? so phil diesel is dirty??????

[Doc Diesel]

sir diesoline,
what exactly is euro 1,2,3 ,4,5 standard? does this mean na diesels in euro1 standard is much dirtier than euro5? so phil diesel is dirty??????

I'm presuming you meant to ask me this...

Euro 1,2,3,4 etc. is the standard used by the gov't to refine diesels specially the sulfur content and other additives.

more here: http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/ld.html

[KCboy]

don't want to sound makulit, if phil diesel belongs to the lower euro standard then it means our diesel nga is lousy so crdi engines will not be able to take the dirty fuel. so the water in the tank reasoning is notthe main culprit. balik tayo ulit sa dirty diesel arugement.????

[mazdamazda]

sulfur content lang naman ang pinagkaiba ng euro 1-4.

basically... nasa euro 1 tayo AFAIK... 500ppm. euro 4 is nasa 50 ppm... the next is the "zero" sulfur content of 15ppm.

ewan ko bakit "dirty" ang tawag nila dun... mas mataas lang ang sulfur content.

[zechs]

bakit puro toyota vehicles ata yung nagkakaproblem sa CRDi engines nila? what about the starex na CRDi din? may nagkaroon na ba na same problem as the innovas? same engine lang naman ang innova, hilux and fortuner D4D, pero mas pronounced ata sa innova yung problem...bakit kaya?

[frankosiz]

Does this mean that non-CRDI engines such as the 4D56 of mitsubishi is less prone to problems with the injectors? I noticed that when I had my fuel filter changed last month, there was a clear liquid inside. It can't be diesel fuel since I think it is red in color. Does it mean that there is water retained in the filter? I noticed that my adventure does not always perform the same. The accelarator pedal is sometimes light on the foot meaning a slight step and it goes fast and sometimes heavy and drags. At first I thought the culprit was the brakes that got stuck and some say it was the fuel since there are gas stations that mix it with kerosene. But now water? I hope we can figure out a way to improvise and place a filter that will separate the water before it reaches the injectors.

[Heretic]

bakit puro toyota vehicles ata yung nagkakaproblem sa CRDi engines nila? what about the starex na CRDi din? may nagkaroon na ba na same problem as the innovas? same engine lang naman ang innova, hilux and fortuner D4D, pero mas pronounced ata sa innova yung problem...bakit kaya?

Isuzu and Toyota's diesel engines are equipped primarily by Denso's fuel injection system while Hyundai's diesel engines are fitted by Bosch's. According to Top Gear's September issue, Denso's are allegedly more "finicky" than Bosch's hence an allegedly better tolerance to our dirty diesel.

Shell's diesoline ultra has been in production since December 2003, a 500ppm Euro II compliant diesel. My Matrix (10,143km) and my neighbor's Starex (26,xxxkm) seem to like it. We only experienced poor emission, choking and an increase in engine noise when we had them loaded with Petron's diesel. Petron's among the dirtiest imo.

[KCboy]

hinda ba sulfur yung natitira sa engine and exhaust kaya maitimyung usok ng mga diesel engines natin?

[diesoline]

don't want to sound makulit, if phil diesel belongs to the lower euro standard then it means our diesel nga is lousy so crdi engines will not be able to take the dirty fuel. so the water in the tank reasoning is notthe main culprit. balik tayo ulit sa dirty diesel arugement.????

no kcboy, the cleanliness of a particular batch of diesel fuel has no relation to the its sulfur content. i agree with mazdamazda. euro1 diesel is not less cleaner than euro4 diesel, but euro1 diesel has more sulfur particulates than euro4 diesel. the term "clean" in clean diesel refers only to the emission characteristics of the fuel, not the fuel quality.

sulfur's role in diesel fuel is for lubrication as all diesel fuel injection systems, be the common rails or the older conventional types, are lubricated by the fuel itself. in other words, clean diesel, so as not to damage the injection system, need additional additives in order to regain the lubricity lost due to lower sulfur content.

where does water come into the picture: water dissolved in diesel reduces lubricity further.

the cleanliness of our fuel depends a lot more on the dealers of the service stations we get our diesel from. if the dealer is not keen on maintaining good housekeeping on its storage tanks, "dirty" diesel inevitably goes out from the pumps.

for more on water and diesel, check out yebo's replies on this thread:
http://tsikot.yehey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22501

[KCboy]

now i get it na....thanks for explaining that to me. this thread is really helping me a lot.

[larshell]

Is it fair to blame the diesel fuel? I notice that most of the Innova owner's don't have this problem like Innova_Boy were using the same fuel and he got his Innova much earlier than me.I think the fault is wd Toyota maybe coz of the High demand Quality control suffers.

[edzzz]

di ko alam kung natanong na to. Pano yung mga oil companies na nag aadvertise ng mga "clean diesels" like Petron, Shell, may bago pa sa Uni-oil, clean diesel din. Hindi pa ba enough yun para sa mga crdi or its just a marketing ploy?

[zechs]

maybe both. but we wont know that for sure. mahirap ma-test kasi kung talaga pure clean diesel or propaganda lang ito eh....

[larshell]

di ko alam kung natanong na to. Pano yung mga oil companies na nag aadvertise ng mga "clean diesels" like Petron, Shell, may bago pa sa Uni-oil, clean diesel din. Hindi pa ba enough yun para sa mga crdi or its just a marketing ploy?

Basta ang alam ko Shell comply wd our law (clean air act) i think mas advance pa nga sila. sa pagkakaalam ko Shell and Petron is Euro2 compliant na or Higher pa.

[Alpha_One]

With today's diesel prices, the fuel giants should, at least, add some quality to our diesel fuel! Do they think every diesel vehicle in the RP is a jeepney? Are they that stooopid?

Maybe not, but the government does think that way. I.e.:
Jeepney drivers/operators = voters
CRDi owners = voters
Jeepney drivers/operators > CRDi owners.

imo, most of the problems faced by diesel users here have mostly to do with water contamination. i don't think that sulfur content is the main culprit of the perceived dirty diesel. it think the problem lies in the combination of water and fuel that is combusted together.

imagine 50 cc of water that infiltrated the fuel tank. the 50cc of water may have come from many avenues. the condensation inside the fuel tank that naturally happens everytime we park our cars for the night; the humid atmospheric air that enters the fuel tank everytime we open the fuel cap; water pumped along with the fuel from the service station. imagine that 50cc of water sloshing about in 40 liters of diesel inside the fuel tank when the vehicle is in motion. that translates into a lot of dissolved water in the diesel.

just think of it this way: kunwari you have a wok of very hot oil. if you sprinkle a little water on it di ba umuusok at tumitilamsik? that happens because the small drop of water vaporizes instantly because of the heat. the small drop water expands suddenly and converts into a huge amount of steam. imagine that reaction concentrated in the nozzle tips of the injection system and repeated many times over. eventually, the tolerances go way off, fuel is not combusted properly, smoke belching occurs and problems become imminent.

FYI, a combination of water and fuel combusting isn't possible because water (vapor) is a byproduct of combustion. The water simply won't burn because it can't. If the amount of water isn't large enough to displace enough fuel and/or air, the combustion will still take place, but it'll be a smaller fire.

What water does affect is the properties of the fuel itself (lubricity, boiling point, freezing point, corrosiveness et. al.). The fuel was designed to have specific properties that will work best in a diesel fuel system/engine, and water contamination changes those properties. If there's enough water to change the fuel enough, your fuel will become "out of spec" and will start damaging your fuel system. In countries where they have winter, fuel in the summer is different from fuel in the winter.

P.S. the same also applies to your engine's cooling system. Theoretically, water is still the best coolant if you're only talking about cooling. But if you don't want your coolant to rust out your radiator, or freeze in the winter, et al. you add coolant/antifreeze to change the water's properties.

Yes its true may refinery dto ang Petron & Shell sa Pinas (the latter is in Batangas). and i'm pretty sure they are operating that will rival international standards. so the shady part is how are those fuel transferred to distributors and how clean are the tanks of those retailers.

Ditto.