Auto-LPG Conversion Thread

[ghosthunter]

Sir,

Thank you for the links, puede pala talaga biogas. the german army pala fueled their trucks with biogas in world war 2.

I think the following is one of the reasons why biogas isn't used to fuel vehicles as widely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogas

In some cases biogas contains siloxanes. These siloxanes are formed from the anaerobic decomposition of materials commonly found in soaps and detergents. During combustion of biogas containing siloxanes, silicon is released and can combine with free oxygen or various other elements in the combustion gas. Deposits are formed containing mostly silica (SiO2) or silicates (SixOy) and can also contain calcium, sulphur, zinc, phosphorus. These white mineral deposits build to a surface thickness of several millimetres and must be removed by chemical or mechanical means.

[webmiester]

that is weird now you are deviating from your first stance?!?! Lahat ng hinirit mo were on assumptions lang pala??? Ehhh dami na accidents that have happened with cooking LPG tanks exploding and burning houses/establishments down and you can still sleep soundly na meron kang LPG sa bahay ninyo? IF you fear LPG in cars then fear LPGs at home too and in restaurants and other commercial establishments na rin.

Carbomb's fears can have basis. For one, houses are rarely involved in vehicular accidents. They also are not moved around as often as cars are. They often also have better ventilation. These are some factors we can put in that makes LPG applications in houses safer than in cars.

In fairness, the proper LPG kits for cars though have thicker tanks, thicker rubber tubings, and feature copper tubings that run through the underside of the car.

Ive also read that in a car LPG system, the engine "sucks" the LPG from the tank, it isnt the tank "pushing" the lpg into the engine (like what happens in a house lpg stove). Thus, when a leakage thus occur, the lpg doesnt go OUT of the tubing, rather it is fresh air that goes IN to the tubing.


No matter what we say though, Car bomb's fears may stay with him. One does not get rid of his fears simply because he was berrated in at a discussion. His fears are valid, and I respect that.

[carbomb]

thx webmiester. to tell u the truth, i am not good with words. philisophy is my most hated subject during college. aminado ako dyan. kaya parati akong natatalo sa mga discussions. to the sound of their responses kc parang ginagawa nila akong ignorante. they better tell those things in front of me and ill show them what im capable of sabi ko nga, im not good with words

[ghosthunter]

thx webmiester. to tell u the truth, i am not good with words. philisophy is my most hated subject during college. aminado ako dyan. kaya parati akong natatalo sa mga discussions. to the sound of their responses kc parang ginagawa nila akong ignorante. they better tell those things in front of me and ill show them what im capable of sabi ko nga, im not good with words

OT: even I am not good with words, especially with a face to face debate where speedy rebuttals is essential. The advantage of having your messages posted in a forum (like this) is you have time to form your responses and even change them when it is needed. Just takes practice and you can develop this kind of skill.

[webmiester]

This is a discussion board, not a debate board.

My view on debates is that they rarely bring out the truth, they only bring out who is the better debater, rarely what is really the truth. That's why in debate competitions, the sides of each team are chosen by flipping a coin.

Back to the topic: Does anyone know what issues were raised during the recent LPG convention?

[skipper5398]

If LPG is unsafe, it should not be used by Hongkong taxis, they ahad been using lpg after hongkong govt ban the use of diesel for taxi many years ago.

[ghosthunter]

Back to the topic: Does anyone know what issues were raised during the recent LPG convention?

Nope. I actually wanted to go but work got in the way.

[webmiester]

If LPG is unsafe, it should not be used by Hongkong taxis, they ahad been using lpg after hongkong govt ban the use of diesel for taxi many years ago.

There is no such thing as 100% safe. Everything is safe and unsafe depending on what criteria and tolerance for "safe" and "unsafe" are used.

For instance, some of the things we do here which we consider as "safe" (such as using the jeepney style seating) wouldn't pass the standards of some countries only because they are considered unsafe by their standards. In the same way, many cheap chinese electronic items don't pass our safety standards but pass theirs mainly because our criteria and tolerance are different. Cars older than 5 years are considered "unsafe" in Japan, but are still regarded as safe in many other countries, etc.

Gasoline fed cars, Diesel, LPG, and even electric cars have particular risks involved. The risks are real for each type of vehicle and its up to the individual to determine whether the risks he/she percieves in the vehicles is up to his tolerance levels.

In this way, may people have opted to buy Volvo's instead of Toyota's, or have chosen bigger SUV type vehicles rather than smaller hatchbacks because they may perceive certain types of risks which they would rather not have, or would rather not tolerate.

In this line, there are people who dont even ride bikes without wearing foam all over their bodies or some people who dont cross the street without wearing reflectors, and there are people who dont take these precautions, and even let their 4 year old children cross highways because they consider their practice "safe" anyway. In the end, "safe" and "unsafe" often boils down to a perception.

We do have criteria, such as laws and government safety standards which pre-define these lines for us. Of course, these criteria was created as according to the tolerance levels of those in charge of making them. They are not perfect.

Automotive LPG safety issues/rumors may be beyond the tolerance levels of some people, and we dont need to resent them for that.

[webmiester]

Nope. I actually wanted to go but work got in the way.

By any chance would you be representing a particular company if you were able to go? NAIDASS perhaps?

[niky]

GH is a private enthusiast... he doesn't work for any of the LPG companies, but he's done extensive research into it...

[ssalonga]

Hi Guys!

Ako i am for the promotion of lpg, lng for auto use pero ang hindi ko maintindihan eh bakit inu una pa natin i export ang natural gas natin at import naman tayo lpg it does not make sense to me.

mark_t that's a very interesting question, and i'd like to take a swing at it if you don't mind. I asked the same question last year when I first researched what I could do to reduce my individual carbon emission contribution to global warming.

You're right, we do produce our own Natural Gas from the Malampaya field in Northern Palawan which is exported as such. Natural gas is extracted directly from the ground and is made up of all the usual gases found in hydrocarbon petroleum. The Rep of the Phil has already commissioned franchises for 50 to 60 buses (can't remember exactly) to use Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) from the Bicutan daughter terminal of the NG pipeline from Batangas City Mother Terminal which is connected to the Malampaya fields by UW pipeline.

LPG on the other hand has traditionally been extracted as a by-product of petroleum refining (about 3% of the petroleum feed stock) most of the rest is gasoline, kerosene (JET A-1) diesel and bunker C. However, newer NG fields are putting up processing plants that strip LPG and other gases directly from Natural Gas. We do not yet have this ability since the demand for LPG is still quite low, but will certainly have it in the future as we join the LPG Highway (a pipeline that will originate in Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia, pass through Palawan on the way to China) in the next ten years. At that point we should be a net exporter of NG and LPG with a good supply of LPG.

If you check most of your LPG conversion suppliers you will find that they also carry kits for CNG (called "metano" in Italy) which should allow you to use CNG in Bicutan in your motorcar. The tanks will be heavier, efficiency lower than LPG and hardware more expensive.


That's what I know on that issue for now.....hope that's helpful to everyone... Cheers!


steve

[ghosthunter]

By any chance would you be representing a particular company if you were able to go? NAIDASS perhaps?

I would be representing myself and similar private end-users of auto-LPG.

[emghee]

Hmmm... As of now, may mga taxi dito sa Ortigas Center na naka LPG converted na yung kotse nila. Sabi nila, medyo mahina daw yung hatak kumpara sa Gas. Kasi alam nyo naman na pag taxi, unahan sa pasahero. Less power daw talaga... pero is it true na mahina talaga or depende sa Car model? Since i just read sa thread na idealy, 2000 model and up yung idealy ang gusto nila i-market wih the company who is promoting this kind of alternaive. Eh pano naman yung mga Old car models? Applicable pa rin kaya to? Like Year 1990 and below. Sigurado may interesado rin sa kanila.

[ghosthunter]

Hmmm... As of now, may mga taxi dito sa Ortigas Center na naka LPG converted na yung kotse nila. Sabi nila, medyo mahina daw yung hatak kumpara sa Gas. Kasi alam nyo naman na pag taxi, unahan sa pasahero. Less power daw talaga... pero is it true na mahina talaga or depende sa Car model?

generally the carb type LPG will result in less power than gasoline but only by 5 to 10 percent if the engine was properly tuned.

Since i just read sa thread na idealy, 2000 model and up yung idealy ang gusto nila i-market wih the company who is promoting this kind of alternaive. Eh pano naman yung mga Old car models? Applicable pa rin kaya to? Like Year 1990 and below. Sigurado may interesado rin sa kanila.

Older cars can be converted to LPG. It simply depends on the engine type if you are going to use the carb or SGI type LPG kits.

One reason why maybe LPG companies would prefer to market LPG kits to more recent cars is the cost versus savings analysis. An old car like the lancer box type has a value of less than P100k. Would an owner of such invest P30K (amlost a third of the car's value) to make it run on LPG?

[eyshmechanic]

hi gh, i have toyota 4k engine sa jp ko. pwede ko ba i-cnvert to lpg. where can i get literature regarding lpg conversion and where can i get the hardwares. kasi gusto ako ang gumawa. tnx

[ssalonga]

hi gh, i have toyota 4k engine sa jp ko. pwede ko ba i-cnvert to lpg. where can i get literature regarding lpg conversion and where can i get the hardwares. kasi gusto ako ang gumawa. tnx

Hi there, eyshmechanic! Glad to finally meet someone who wants to DIY his own conversion. I got most of my initial information from this website:

http://wps.com/LPG/LPG-book-final.html

more information on Propane conversion kits here:

http://cars.rasoenterprises.com/index.html

I have some Do-It-Yourself installation experience and parts and would gladly share any comments and insights. Just ask.

steve

[eyshmechanic]

Hi there, eyshmechanic! Glad to finally meet someone who wants to DIY his own conversion. I got most of my initial information from this website:

http://wps.com/LPG/LPG-book-final.html

more information on Propane conversion kits here:

http://cars.rasoenterprises.com/index.html

I have some Do-It-Yourself installation experience and parts and would gladly share any comments and insights. Just ask.

steve

hi steve, thanks for the info and don't worry you will hear a lot from me he he!

[ghosthunter]

slightly OT: if this goes on, we actually might have enough people to form an auto-LPG users EB.

[niky]

Hmmm... just talked to Tartarini... they quoted me 66k pesos for an SGI kit with the donut tank (that fits in the spare tire well... that's 6k alone!).

The SGI kit requires no holes to be bored in your intake manifold... it'll use your stock injectors, with a computer-controlled valve system to seamlessly switch between gas and LPG on the run. There's also a bundled ECU (which probably explains the price... most ECUs cost 20-40k pesos) that'll monitor the system and switch back to gas if anything goes wrong. The whole system uses your stock timing maps and fuel maps...

Supposedly, the difference in power is very slight (na-dyno-test din nila), and with a donut tank, I won't have to sacrifice luggage capacity... just imagine... a 1000+ kilometer range with two full tanks and a trunkful of luggage...

Going there this Saturday. Will take pics.

[ssalonga]

The SGI kit requires no holes to be bored in your intake manifold... it'll use your stock injectors, with a computer-controlled valve system to seamlessly switch between gas and LPG on the run. There's also a bundled ECU (which probably explains the price... most ECUs cost 20-40k pesos) that'll monitor the system and switch back to gas if anything goes wrong. The whole system uses your stock timing maps and fuel maps...

niky,

I am really curious how they are able to use your stock injectors to feed propane into your intake manifold. The stock injector only handle liquid fuel (not gas like lpg), unless they propose to inject liquid lpg through the same injector. The pressure requirements for liquid lpg would mean that the injector must handle upwards of 300 psi!

I have been researching and only GTI in Australia has developed such an injector and it has to replace your stock injectors! I suspect they will use an ordinary mixer to feed your intake manifold and use an emulator to "fool" your injectors when operating on lpg. That way no extra vapor injectors, no extra holes!

Sequential Gas Injection usually requires vapor injectors in each cylinder, its best to find out exactly what hardware you are getting, you may be paying more than you need to.

BTW, what car and engine are you installing it in?

regards,

steve