Auto-LPG Conversion Thread

[ghosthunter]

For Expedition conversions, where do they put the LPG tank? How many liters capacity whould that be, because an Exp tank is more than a hundred liters, right? One should put it an approximate capacity so as not to severely affect the vehicle range.

The biggest single auto-LPG tank I have seen is 60 liters. If you are going to use the standard tank, typical installation would be at the rear storage area.

Some auto_lpg pictures available on the web shows some vehicles having two tanks linked together to provide bigger capacity.

If you are really serious about converting to LPG, best to contact the LPG kit installers and ask what options they can offer you and your XP.

[dencio1976]

in my experience(58 taxis and still aquiring), i find that macro kits offer better range of tweaking. we have about 10units of taxi with either naiadss or tartarini. so ive tested them. this is my opinion for the carb type kit. no experience with the SGI type. also that in more than a year of usage, we've had more than 3 units of taxi with really bad rear collision(to the point of shattering of rear windshield). still, no leaks. ive not had a leak issue with macro. but ive not had leak issues with the naiadss or tartarini either. you can use detergents + water mixed and sponge to check possible leaks once in a while. just as a precautionary measure. i once came across a taxi unit with a leak when we were thinking about putting them on our cabs. it spawned a debate with me and my dad. i own about 5 units, my dad owns the rest. anyways, we tried it first with 3units. then every driver that wanted lpgs requested for it. after which every driver requested for it.

you'd typically save about 40% in fuel cost with lpg carb type kits. i wonder how much it would be for the SGI. its true that the lpg carb type kits is sensitive to air filter condition, air temp etc.

in my experience with the carb type kit, if its a carb type, regardless of vehicle size, price shouldn't vary. unless there's a need for longer tubes/hoses.

no problem with the availability of LPG's in manila. every time i go out i see a new pump station with LPG. pag sa province ang byahe, best to have gasoline din para sure. may switch naman so you could alternatively run on gas or LPG. (still needs a lot of work though IMO)

[paolorenzo]

Whew. Kakatapos ko lang basahin buong thread na 'to (49 pages, 980 posts). Ako naman 981. Very informative post.

Anyway, medyo nalito ako sa dami ng types of kits (not brands). How many types are there? Meron carb/EFI/SGI? What about open-loop vs. closed-loop? Is this the same as carb vs. EFI?

My ride is a Revo VX200 2.0L Gas (1-RZE). Uhaw na uhaw sa gaso.

[ghosthunter]

Whew. Kakatapos ko lang basahin buong thread na 'to (49 pages, 980 posts). Ako naman 981. Very informative post.

Anyway, medyo nalito ako sa dami ng types of kits (not brands). How many types are there? Meron carb/EFI/SGI? What about open-loop vs. closed-loop? Is this the same as carb vs. EFI?

My ride is a Revo VX200 2.0L Gas (1-RZE). Uhaw na uhaw sa gaso.

Just simplifying, there is carb and efi/sgi kits. (I didn't anymore include the carb with EFI cut-off system since it's still a carb kit adopted to run on an EFI engine.) The SGi kit is basically an EFI using LPG. So far all local kits I have heard of are open loop. A closed loop would require installation of an O2 sensor somewhere in your exhaust system and some electronic control system to regulate fuel flow.

IMHO, the added potential cost and complexity of a closed loops SGI system is not worth it. Simply install the SGI kit, have it calibrated properly and go. A simple periodic check if the SGI kit is operating properly would suffice.

Why am I saying this? ... Simple, everyone wants the most high tech system/kit but very very few would like to pay for it. The carb type LPG kit is roughly P25K to P28K while the SGI kit is P52K to P65K and with these prices we already hear people complaining about it being too expensive and "I cant afford it" reasons.

Technically a closed loop SGI kit is possible. The question is if it is economically feasible to install such into your car and still have a reasonable ROI schedule in your vehicle's operational lifetime.

What about open-loop vs. closed-loop? Is this the same as carb vs. EFI?

The only biggest advantage of having a closed loop SGI kit is it can adjust for changes in air pressure better. So if you were driving up Baguio, the closed loop SGI would compensate by giving less LPG flow to keep the air fuel ratio near ideal. Otherwise your engine would run on the rich side.

Another scenario where the closed loop would be a boon is it would compensate for the condition of your air filter. A dirty air filter would let less air through. If the SGI kit didn't compensate, the engine will run rich again.

[ssalonga]

Whew. Kakatapos ko lang basahin buong thread na 'to (49 pages, 980 posts). Ako naman 981. Very informative post.

Anyway, medyo nalito ako sa dami ng types of kits (not brands). How many types are there? Meron carb/EFI/SGI? What about open-loop vs. closed-loop? Is this the same as carb vs. EFI?

My ride is a Revo VX200 2.0L Gas (1-RZE). Uhaw na uhaw sa gaso.

Hi there! I just reviewed from page 1 and you are right, nakakalito!

perhaps another way to look at the different applications of lpg is this way:

there appear to be two general ways to deliver lpg into your regular spark ignition engine:

venturi mixer - similar to your petrol carburator (it mounts just in front of it) mixes lpg into the airstream that enters your intake manifold. The mixer is a simple ring (like your gas burner) that distributes gas vapor evenly into the stream. Some mixers (IMPCO) incorporate an additional air valve to regulate fuel to air ratio with input from an O2 sensor in which case it is then called a Closed-loop system.

A closed loop system assures better economy by keeping the system running as lean as possible without inducing engine knock. It uses an oxygen (O2) sensor in the exhaust manifold, that tells from the presence of oxygen in the exhaust gas, whether the engine is running rich or lean. As mentioned by GH, it also will keep the mixture near ideal even under extreme changes in altitude and air filter conditions. The closed loop will require some kind of electronic interface (blackbox) to operate the usually mechanical mixer adjustment.

Venturi kits are ideal replacements for carburated cars, and are installed by Naidss and Macro without an O2 closed loop feedback section. It provides reasonable economy when optimized for one type of service or environment since all adjustments to fuel ratio are mechanical and fixed.

The venturi with emulator is the solution for throttle body and multi-point fuel injected engines. A regular venturi mixer is installed over the throttle body and the emulator merely diverts back the electronic impulse from the on board ECU to the fuel injectors or throttle body, back to itself, so the ECU doesn't know the fuel injectors are blocked and aren't operating. The engine operates like a regular carburated lpg without closed loop feedback.

early vapor injection systems replaced the venturi mixer with individual gas injectors routed beside each petrol injector, duplicating the petrol injection system but squirting gas at every ignition event (not yet timed to individual cylinder ignition)

Sequential Gas Injectors (SGI) simplifies bi-fuel applications even further. A more sophisticated LPG ECU uses all the data already sensed by your onboard ECU and translates the data for LPG operations. Since all the sensors and actuators used by the petrol system are now also used by the LPG ECU, this allows smooth transitions from petrol to gas and back. The latest ECU's will switch over from warm up idling on petrol to lpg when temp is normal. Fuel economy greatly enhanced due to sequential fuel delivery directly to individual valve inlets, and finer control of air:fuel ratio since injectors are controlled electronically to deliver exactly the amount needed.

SGI requires an OBD II compliant ECU on board. The SGI piggback ECU uses all the readings from your onboard and translates only the LPG injector data to the SGI.

This is what makes the Expedition F150 such an easy and economical conversion since the kits are purpose built to interact with those ECU types.

fluid injection - next gen technology (based on current patent applications) delivers LPG in liquid (still pressurized at 300 psi) directly into intake ports. This reduces the number of parts required and benefits from charge cooling effect of sudden de-pressurization, and the greater control of fuel delivery. This is the equivalent of gasoline direct injection and ddi. Coming soon are bi-fuel injectors which will handle both petrol and lpg delivery in one injector.

Next gen ECU controls will not just control fuel injection but also: electronic ignition advance to suit each type of fuel, with added cam timing advance control.

So you see the different types of kits available are developed to meet particular generations of spark ignition engines.

Your application will depend on the car you choose to convert. The more purpose built the kit, the better fuel economy and ease of bi-fuel use.

if you have more questions, just ask. I am still studying and experimenting on my own DIY conversion projects and still learning everyday.

regards,

steve

[paolorenzo]

Thanks GH and SS! Galeng nyo talaga.

Some months back, when I was having my radiator fixed at Denso Makati, they were experimenting on converting a Corolla to LPG. Koreans were doing the job, and Vincent (owner) told me it was a closed-loop system. I didn't know if that technology has boomed, and has become widely available and more affordable.

I will now read through the long Avanza thread, and check out if there are any users out there with LPG converted units. I'm planning for an everyday car, and I'd like it to be LPG-powered. Avanza might be worth looking into, but I'm still open to getting a 2nd hand car and have it converted.

[webmiester]

What's the advantage of the pistol-type filling valve vs. the bayonet ones? I kinda like the bayonet systems

[webmiester]

In this thread, Ive heard of NAIDASS converted cars having compatibility problems with other gas stations because of their filling valves.

From what I understand, the filling valve NAIDASS uses is the bayonet-type filling valve which can be installed right next to the gas tank's filling valve (aesthetically nice)

Now one of the lpg converters tells me that the Bayonet-type filling valve was banned by the DOE and the standard being promoted is the pistol-type daw.

Is this true? Plesae correct me if any of the statements here arent right...

Does anyone have pictures of this pistol-type filling valve on their car?

Thanks

[ghosthunter]

In this thread, Ive heard of NAIDASS converted cars having compatibility problems with other gas stations because of their filling valves.

not really much of a problem. They just have to use a filling valve adapter.

[biboy28]

bat ganun halos lahat ng taxi na nakLPG.. amoy na amoy yung Gas..,, minsan sabi sabi ng driver nlalagyan lang daw ng "used Clothes" sa may makina para pumasok sa aircon...

[ghosthunter]

bat ganun halos lahat ng taxi na nakLPG.. amoy na amoy yung Gas..,, minsan sabi sabi ng driver nlalagyan lang daw ng "used Clothes" sa may makina para pumasok sa aircon...

if its the LPG smell outside the taxi, it means the LPG kit needs calibration or the air filter is dirty.

if its the LPG smell inside the taxi, it means there might be a leak at the tank side of the LPG system and the taxi driver did not put the LPG gauge cover on the LPG meter.

[ssalonga]

I ride a lot of taxis and seldom find one where gas leak is a problem.....but I guess the lpg odor inside an old taxicab may be due to open holes in the firewall. An old diesel taxi would stink up the interior with diesel fumes too, for the same reason.

Possible leak from fittings and hose joints in the front end may be due to inferior installation methods by some taxi companies that have self-installed their kits. There is a safe way to install and attach hoses; and the placement of the regulator and vapor lock to avoid stress on joints from vibration and engine movement requires good engineering practice!

The new cabs of BASIC never have this problem!

steve

[dencio1976]

i really havent had complaints about smells ng lpg sa taxi namin. just that i find na iba talaga ang amoy ng exhaust fumes niya compared to a gasoline powered car or a diesel powered one. pero ok lang naman.

with regard to O2 sensors, (for close loop), na sa preference naman yun ng user whether to have there a/f mix lean or rich. all the O2 sensor does is to pick up unburned oxygen(poisonous to us) and give a signal feedback to the ECU. feasible din ang DIY nito as long as you know how the ecu gets the signal and convert/relay to a adaptor/adjuster device of the a/f mix.

malaking bagay din ang O2 sensor sa engine. less periodical maintainance. still a preference though dahil added cost nga ito. pero IMO, ok ito.

[chuaed]

bat ganun halos lahat ng taxi na nakLPG.. amoy na amoy yung Gas..,, minsan sabi sabi ng driver nlalagyan lang daw ng "used Clothes" sa may makina para pumasok sa aircon...

car ko morethan a year na naka LPG, Naiadss ang gumawa wala naman amoy na gas or whatever... i always maintain a constant cleanliness inside my car...

pero noon pumunta ako sa Naiadss Sheridan regarding sa upgrade sana ng LPG device ko eh may katabi ako taxi na naka park doon, talaga umaalingasaw... halo halo ang amoy... amoy putok ng taxi driver, sigarilyo at may halong pinag lumaan shaldan at california scent (kita rin na naka display/naka dikit pa sa dashboard)... grabe nakakahilo talaga.

aside from that, pag kumakaga ako, may nakikita ako mga taxi na nag karga rin eh binubuting ting ang switch sa may gauge sa tank tska dapat may plastic cover iyan pero majoritiy ng taxi wala nun... siguro baka doon sumingaw dahil wala na takip at kinakalikot palagi...

[jhenn]

Hello, I just want to ask Mr. Dencio if we can have an interview with him regarding on the use of LPG? We doing a feature story on the usage of it and we need to interview at least one owner because we also believe that the use of LPG has no such effect on ones health especially lots of people said that its ok to use it. Now i and my partner are wondering if someone here can help us as soon as possible for our deadline.

[jedi]

jhen, try mo mag send ng private message to dencio or ghosthunter

[paolorenzo]

*dencio1976, all, saan ba talaga MACRO installation site? Walang kuwenta website nila eh. Gusto ko lang maki-osyoso. I dropped by the GREEN-something shop beside Big Berts Ortigas Home Depot kahapon, pero sarado na when I dropped by, past 5pm na kasi.

I'm seriously considering LPG conversion, pero maybe not the NAIADSS. I'd like to look for other installers.

[jhenn]

I already send him a private message kya lang wala pa reply. Do you think magrereply sya tomorrow?

[ssalonga]

*dencio1976, all, saan ba talaga MACRO installation site? Walang kuwenta website nila eh. Gusto ko lang maki-osyoso. I dropped by the GREEN-something shop beside Big Berts Ortigas Home Depot kahapon, pero sarado na when I dropped by, past 5pm na kasi.

I'm seriously considering LPG conversion, pero maybe not the NAIADSS. I'd like to look for other installers.

pao,

sa shaw blvd. mandaluyong, across the corner of nueve de febrero is a macro autogas station. They do installations there. This is just before acacia lane when coming from edsa.

also, last weeks bulletin today classified section G under parts and accessories an independent auto lpg installer advertised, am not sure but try these numbers: they say they do macro installation:

0906-8037390

0910-7069071

steve

[paolorenzo]

Thanks Master Steve. Try ko rin drop by sa Green Autogas this week, yung tabi ng Big Berts.