Auto-LPG Conversion Thread

[userfriendly]

Whats the diff between closed loop and sgi? Aside from the price.

[ghosthunter]

Whats the diff between closed loop and sgi? Aside from the price.

SGI - this is basically a system similar to your car's EFI system where individual fuel injectors deliver a fixed amount of fuel to each of the cylinders.

Closed Loop - this is based on the old mixer auto-LPG system (aka open loop) but it has a feedback system based on the oxygen sensor located along the exhaust system of the engine. Based in the signals of the oxygen sensor, the LPG system will adjust the amount of LPG to maintain proper A/F ratio throughout the entire RPM range. The LPG fuel is still mixed into the engine intake air via a venturi "mixer".

The net result of the two kits type is about the same (LPG fuel is mixed into the intake air and sent into the engine cylinders). The problem is the closed-loop and open-loop system fills the engine intake manifold with fuel & air (SGI system injects the LPG fuel just before the cylinders). Although rare, the fuel-air mixture can ignite and cause a small "bang". For engines with a metal manifold, this is no problem but for more recent engines with plastic manifolds, this might have the potential to damage the plastic manifold.

Examples of vehicles with plastic intake manifolds: Mazda3, Honda City/Jazz, Honda CRV (gen2).

[userfriendly]

Thanks GH. Great explanation.

The LPG giys should start paying you for explaning this stuff.

So does this mean that for SGI installs, a hole must be drilled near the injector for the LPG injector? And that it might require pulling out the engine.

[ghosthunter]

Thanks GH. Great explanation.
The LPG giys should start paying you for explaning this stuff.

I should start a retainer fee of sorts soon.

Or maybe a service fee for every question answered?

So does this mean that for SGI installs, a hole must be drilled near the injector for the LPG injector? And that it might require pulling out the engine.

Yup, they will drill a hole into the intake manifold for every injector to be installed. Usually the worst case would be to remove the intake manifold from the engine, not pulling out of the entire engine.

[mark_t]

Sir,

Question lang po, how much will it cost to convert to liquified natural gas fuel your lpg convertion if and when lng from palawan becomes available locally? Though I heard somewhere that the natural gas production for the next ten years from palawan has already been sold. I just dont remember where I heard this. And why is the thrust to convert to lpg when this will still have to be imported? Are there lng conversions available locally?

I am just wondering, why honda has a lng production model (Civic) and yet shell or honda is not bringing it in even for just for promos? When they are bringing in buses.

What will be the difference in the focus groups (lpg promoters vs lng promoters) objective? According to the papers lng will retail for around 14 pesos, it will be a great help to our economy by just simple substitution.
Do you guys know of a focal points or focus groups promoting lng in the philippines?

[ghosthunter]

I really should start charging a consultation fee for this.

Sir,
Question lang po, how much will it cost to convert to liquified natural gas fuel your lpg convertion if and when lng from palawan becomes available locally?

Honestly, no idea because there is no one doing local conversion to CNG/LNG on private vehicles yet. But if I was to assume a few things, it would probably be more expensive than LPG conversion due to the need to have a much stronger storage tank and possible engine conversion to use CNG/LNG in a standard gasoline engine.

Also it might not be viable to convert smaller cars to CNG/LNG due to the weight of the storage tank for CNG/LNG which might require some retrofit of the rear suspension with stronger springs & shocks.

Though I heard somewhere that the natural gas production for the next ten years from palawan has already been sold. I just dont remember where I heard this. And why is the thrust to convert to lpg when this will still have to be imported? Are there lng conversions available locally?

The local thrust for LPG as against LNG/CNG is because we already have the infrastructure to distribute and sell LPG. In other countries, they would have an existing infrastructure to distribute CNG so it would be simple for them to adapt the system to fuel automobiles. But for us, LPG distribution is currently available distribution system.

I am just wondering, why honda has a lng production model (Civic) and yet shell or honda is not bringing it in even for just for promos? When they are bringing in buses.

For the reason that there is not enough refueling stations to support privately owned CNG fueled vehicles yet. As of now, there is only ONE CNG refueling station.

An analogy to the hydrogen car in the USA. As of now, only California has enough hydrogen refueling stations to support local privately owned hydrogen-fuel cars. The reason for the available hydrogen infrastructure is the lead and push of Governor Arnold Swasanager to support hydrogen fueled cars in his state to help reduce the overall pollution in his state.
So it's a matter of which comes first, the chicken or the egg... or in this case, the car or the refueling stations?

What will be the difference in the focus groups (lpg promoters vs lng promoters) objective? According to the papers lng will retail for around 14 pesos, it will be a great help to our economy by just simple substitution.
Do you guys know of a focal points or focus groups promoting lng in the philippines?

Currently the group promoting LNG/CNG would be the bus companies. For a passenger bus, the heavier weight of the CNG storage tank will not matter as much as compared to lighter vehicles like SUVs and passenger sedans. Since buses travel in a fix route, the number of CNG refilling stations need not be that many, it just needs to be located strategically to support CNG-fueled buses near or along their routes.

The people who would be promoting/prefering LPG would be the taxi, fleet and private car owners in whom the availability of a proper and widely available refueling infrastructure is more important (aside from the fuel's lower price as compared to gasoline). Since the daily travel routes of these types of vehicles is less predictable, having more refilling stations scattered in the metro areas would be preferred.

[ghosthunter]

Doing some computations:

auto-LPG * P26.50/L
gasoline * P45.00/L


If you have a carb engine...
Price for open-loop LPG conversion kit from Greenfuel = 18K
If your monthly gasoline bill is P4,000, you can achieve ROI in about 12 months.

If you have an EFI engine with metal intake manifold...
Price for open-loop LPG conversion kit with EFI emulator from Greenfuel = 20k
If your monthly gasoline bill is P4,300, you can achieve ROI in about 12 months.

If you have an EFI engine with metal intake manifold...
Price for closed-loop LPG conversion kit with EFI emulator from Coomate/Denso = 25k
If your monthly gasoline bill is P5,200, you can achieve ROI in about 12 months.
If your monthly gasoline bill is P3,600, you can achieve ROI in about 18 months.

If you have an EFI engine with plastic intake manifold...
Price for SGI LPG kit from Greenfuel = P39K
If your monthly gasoline bill is P8,000, you can achieve ROI in about 12 months.
If your monthly gasoline bill is P6,000, you can achieve ROI in about 18 months.
If your monthly gasoline bill is P4,000, you can achieve ROI in about 24 months.



Greenfuel Corporation
contact: Michael Lim
0922-8231270
email: info*greenfuel.com.ph
website: www.greenfuel.com.ph

Coolmate Corporation / DENSO
contact: Michael Tagle
Tel: 8959540 or 8956587
email: mike_tagle*yahoo.com

[bigfootoz]

*meledson & *enzo18

The problem with SGI LPG kits is that the kit is expensive hence the longer ROI period.

The better alternative is the closed loops system currently offered by DENSO/COOLMATE Corp.

As mentioned by Mike, his kits are priced at P24,000 to P25,000 depending if your car is equipped with oxygen sensors. (If your car has a factory oxygen sensor, the LPG kit will be priced at P24K).

This closed loop LPG kit offers the user with a more balanced air/fuel system (as compared against "traditional" open loop systems) with the low and more affordable installation price. The only other type available to offer balanced air/fuel systems is the SGI kits which are (obviously) more expensive.

So for those who are disheartened about buying a SGI-LPG kit for their car, I strongly suggest to look up the closed loops system being sold by DENSO.

Good day Sir!

Thank you for the endoresment....

For those who would like to know more about our close-loop system please fill free to PM me or email me at mike_tagle*yahoo.com. i can email your brochures and info.

you can also contact us at:
Coolmate Corporation
3005 Vito Cruz Ext. cor Kakarong St.,
Brgy. Sta. Cruz, Makati City
Tel: 8959540 or 8956587
Cell: 09285075671 / 09228886453

Thank you.

[bigfootoz]

I really should start charging a consultation fee for this.




Honestly, no idea because there is no one doing local conversion to CNG/LNG on private vehicles yet. But if I was to assume a few things, it would probably be more expensive than LPG conversion due to the need to have a much stronger storage tank and possible engine conversion to use CNG/LNG in a standard gasoline engine.

Also it might not be viable to convert smaller cars to CNG/LNG due to the weight of the storage tank for CNG/LNG which might require some retrofit of the rear suspension with stronger springs & shocks.




The local thrust for LPG as against LNG/CNG is because we already have the infrastructure to distribute and sell LPG. In other countries, they would have an existing infrastructure to distribute CNG so it would be simple for them to adapt the system to fuel automobiles. But for us, LPG distribution is currently available distribution system.




For the reason that there is not enough refueling stations to support privately owned CNG fueled vehicles yet. As of now, there is only ONE CNG refueling station.

An analogy to the hydrogen car in the USA. As of now, only California has enough hydrogen refueling stations to support local privately owned hydrogen-fuel cars. The reason for the available hydrogen infrastructure is the lead and push of Governor Arnold Swasanager to support hydrogen fueled cars in his state to help reduce the overall pollution in his state.
So it's a matter of which comes first, the chicken or the egg... or in this case, the car or the refueling stations?




Currently the group promoting LNG/CNG would be the bus companies. For a passenger bus, the heavier weight of the CNG storage tank will not matter as much as compared to lighter vehicles like SUVs and passenger sedans. Since buses travel in a fix route, the number of CNG refilling stations need not be that many, it just needs to be located strategically to support CNG-fueled buses near or along their routes.

The people who would be promoting/prefering LPG would be the taxi, fleet and private car owners in whom the availability of a proper and widely available refueling infrastructure is more important (aside from the fuel's lower price as compared to gasoline). Since the daily travel routes of these types of vehicles is less predictable, having more refilling stations scattered in the metro areas would be preferred.

I just had a meeting with the Ayala Group...they are also looking in the CNG and is forcasting that 10 to 12 years from now, we will also be using CNGs and LNGs as fuel source...They are also looking a infastrutures for the CNGs and i think will plan a pipeline form the Malampaya Project...not sure if it will push thru...but somone is looking in to it...

[bigfootoz]

FYI...

Our group will be coming out with a SGI sytem for those who are intrested n this type of system. We are expecting this with 2months.


Also, will are also looking at, bringing in the LPI system (Liquid Petrolium gas Injection System)...Its injecting the LPG in liquid form...

for those intrested...give us a call....

We are also looking for dealers in different areas...just incase you would like to engage into LPG Business....


We are also offering free seminar for clubs or groups who would like to know more and understand about the AutoLPG industry and our systems.

Thank you....
Coolmate Corporation


Michael M. Tagle
mike_tagle*yahoo.com

[bigMIKE]

If I may add, I believe the governments' thrust for Natural Gas is to be able to share this natural resource to a much wider public. Thus I do not believe that the station in sta rosa will fill up your tank with natural gas even if you have a private car or truck that is equipped with CNG kit. Take note that this is a limited resource that is also being used to power our electricity-- First Philippine Holdings (Lopez group) built a power plant in Batangas where the gas is offloaded from Malampaya. Ten years worth of supply is not really not much if you think about it given the infrastructure investment that is built to consume this resource

[bigfootoz]

Thats what i thought also...but according to them...Philippines has an aboundant source...

But wouldnt hurt to bring back those......P9/liter fuel...hehehehehe

[Negus]

Guys,

a friend of mine plans on converting his LC100 to LPG. I'm not mechanically inclined thus I am not of any help to him really . I already told him that it is better to equip a mid-size car but he currently uses it to haul large, sensitive communications equipment plus he likes to ride in style (he does 3 trips monthly to Baguio and Pangasinan with the LC). AFAIK, I think it has the 4.7-litre 32-valve 2UZ-FE petrol engine. Is it a good idea? or should he back down with this type of conversion? makakatipid ba sa mga ganito kalalaking makina?

[ghosthunter]

Guys,

a friend of mine plans on converting his LC100 to LPG. I'm not mechanically inclined thus I am not of any help to him really . I already told him that it is better to equip a mid-size car but he currently uses it to haul large, sensitive communications equipment plus he likes to ride in style (he does 3 trips monthly to Baguio and Pangasinan with the LC). AFAIK, I think it has the 4.7-litre 32-valve 2UZ-FE petrol engine. Is it a good idea? or should he back down with this type of conversion? makakatipid ba sa mga ganito kalalaking makina?

Well, it is possible to convert such a vehicle to use the SGI or even mixer type LPG kit. If Ford XPs with their 5L engines can run on LPG, why not the LC.

Downside, he has to look for a good location for the fuel tank and still retain enough cargo space for the stuff he hauls around. And even then, he might run out of LPG by the time he reaches Baguio even if the LC was equipped with a 60L tank.

Biggest problem with LPG is the lack of a refueling station outside of Metro Manila. So chance are, your friend will be running on gasoline on his way back to Manila so he would need to start his trips with both tanks full of fuel (LPG & gasoline).

[bigMIKE]

based on our experience with big engines, our customers really are attached to big cars because of the ride. We even had customers bringing old Toyota Crown that they have not used in ages because of high gas consumption. However when they learned about autogas they are more than willing to convert them just to experience the 'ride' again. And they are not disappointed. We had a business taipan customer who prefers to ride his lpg Toyota Crown over his other late model vehicles
The higher the consumption of a vehicle the more reason they should convert to lpg as their recovery period will be faster.

[bigMIKE]

There are 90L tanks as well. There is actually a station in baguio so your friend need not worry if he goes back to baguio.

[userfriendly]

Also, will are also looking at, bringing in the LPI system (Liquid Petrolium gas Injection System)...Its injecting the LPG in liquid form

what is the benefit of this system compared to the open, closed and sgi kits?

There are 90L tanks as well

How big are those things?Are these torpedo or donut type?

BTW, can torodial tanks be installed underneath/outside a car?

[bigMIKE]

90L tanks are the cylindrical type (torpedo). Toroidals can be mounted under chassis we have done this on innova's and on expeditions. However in doing so you lose your spare tire well.

[userfriendly]

Might be a dumb questions, but:

1. Is there a big difference quality and performance wise between different brands of lpg kits? I mean SGI kit from say Greenfuel vs SGI kit from Aldesa against Tartarini etc.

2. If you convert to lpg, does it mean that you no longer have to replace your fuel filter since you hardly use any fuel?

3. Aside from Denso, does anyone else offer closed loop systems?

[ssalonga]

Sir,

Question lang po, how much will it cost to convert to liquified natural gas fuel your lpg convertion if and when lng from palawan becomes available locally? Though I heard somewhere that the natural gas production for the next ten years from palawan has already been sold. I just dont remember where I heard this. And why is the thrust to convert to lpg when this will still have to be imported? Are there lng conversions available locally?

Gud pm, may i jump in?

some background info on Natural Gas:

The equipment that converts LPG and LNG or CNG (they refer to the same thing) are similar. They operate at different pressure levels as Natural Gas has a lower thermal efficiency and is less dense per unit volume than LPG. To get the same amount of fuel in the same tank space the NG has to be compressed to higher pressures levels. The higher operating pressures means different tank ratings, higher presssure rated hoses and connectors.

LPG is typically derived from crude petroleum refineries and represents about 3% of refinery output. LPG (made up of butane and propane) may also be extracted from Natural Gas. In Italy most conversion kit makers have models for "Metano" or Natural Gas that look similar to their LPG kits but have higher spring rates in the reducer and have different hose fittings for the NG.

There are now 16 CNG buses on Provincial to Metro Manila routes on test trials. Rides are free at the moment. The only fuel depot that will service these buses is on the SLEX at the terminal of the NG pipeline from Batangas where the NG powerplants are served by the Malampaya pipeline.

In the US where NG is distributed directly to homes for heating fuel, government utility vehicles were converted to CNG during the mid-90's as a fuel conservation measure. The LNG Honda Civic DL was produced for the California State Gov't which had ordered 600 units in the late 90's for its service vehicle fleet.

It is actually our government that is spurring the use of LPG and LNG for the transport sector. The private bus owners are actually not keen due to the high cost of fleet conversion (higher for LNG than LPG) and the uncertain supply and distribution infrastructure as Ghost hunter has explained.

To answer your question, Mark: converting from LPG to LNG would be quite simple, most kit manufacturers already have the reducer/vaporizer available now, just swap all the hardware, including the tank and hoses and its done. Pera na lang kulang.

cheers!

steve